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I think (in my limited, humble opinion) that the thing about ost is that support weapons by themselves suck, and ost infantry by themselves suck, but they are designed to fill each other's gaps and weaknesses and be played together. In a way, that makes ost harder than a lot of other factions, especially WFA, because they don't have access to some do-all badass unit, but have a bunch of tools to use in tandem with each other to get the job done. I think the wbp is a step in the right direction for ost, but they still shouldn't have infantry on the levels of riflemen or tommies. They could be cheaper to reinforce though imo (maybe 26-27; in between volks and brit and usf infantry). |
Obersoldaten's ability to move and fire with LMGs is often overlooked.
I mean, I forget about it all the time. But it has a huge implication for their ability to maneuver.
For me, Obers being entirely helpless against vehicles has been their greatest weakness.
It is worth noting however that rifles and the few lmgs (34 and 1919) that fire on the move both have awful accuracy while moving. On the flip side, both those weapons on obers already have pretty insane damage, so you'll still end up doing a lot on the move too. |
Well, the thing is you can't immediately roll tanks out, can you? When do you setup your Schwere? Cause if you set up right at the moment you have enough fuels for it, you'll have to wait quite a while before you can roll the first tank out, which by that time, you should have enough MP for 1 Obers.
Then the way you think Obers is JUST a more-expensive AI unit is what harming Obers. You think Volks are enough for AI role, so you don't want Obers (Which is fair cause Volks sometimes really are enough). That's why I want Volks to excel at role that Obers don't, so Obers can truly shine as long-range assault/AI unit. To be honest, Volks with Schreck was having a good synergy with Obers (AT units with AI units) but well, Volks with Schreck was too much for both sides so fixing that, we accidentally broke the synergy. Now, the best thing can happened to recreate the synergy is either Volks get upgrade to be close-range combatants (More suitable due to how they are right now, just needs slight tweaking) or give them upgrade to be AT units (The old synergy, even Schreck can works cause the reason why Schreck blob was so painful was because of Volks' old vet, now they don't have that, we can give it a try, or even with a slower reload for Volks' Schreck if needed. Basically, it's not that doable compared to the one I proposed).
I still think giving cheap five man squads arguably the best at weapons would be too much of a slap in the face to basically all allied armor. They would still have four kar98s and be 25mp to reinforce, making them way way better than zook riflemen or piat sections at basically everything, while still being cheaper. |
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I actually really enjoy using obers when I play okw. The thing is, you're not really supposed to just stick them up front and let them soak damage, despite the pretty good target size they get right off the bat. The way I see it, you screen with stg volks, which are more durable and less likely to all get blown up by one Sherman, and will keep the allied infantry off the obers backs, and the obers will sit in the back and provide fire support for the volks. If you do it right, the obers really shouldn't be taking fire at all. Of course, this is in a perfect world, but seeing as how cost effective and no-brainer volks are now, I think obers are a good supporting troop, and can be really really powerful if you use them right. |
It has some nice and up to date gameplay related posts at the beginning. I wouldn't doom it with a ballance section stigma. Mods should split it into two threads IMO.
Yeah it would be nice if we could keep discussing the gameplay points. I will say it's almost entirely my fault that the thread turned into a balance discussion because I think at some point I suggested possibly buffing the valentine, which then prompted the last few pages. Sidenote: it's really really nice having a regular old smokescreen as brits with the valentine ability. I don't use it much, but I really appreciate having it around, as I don't ever build pits and would otherwise have to rely exclusively on snipers or sextons for garrison/mg clearing duty. Especially those rare instances where the game goes so long that upgrading grenades on infantry sections is worth it (you know, 40+ mins and 300 fuel/500 muni float, those games). |
I feel that ballance discussion derails this gameplay thread. It is in gameplay section becouse it's about using the commander, not about changing it.
Yeah but it's been derailed pretty hard at this point. Might as well let it run as a balance discussion and move it to balance now. |
And what I suggested is to make the Radar ability an upgrade similar to command vehicle limited to one.
Then one can balance the Valentine as medium/light tank and add penalties to radar ability upgrade if one has to, similar to the command vehicle upgrade.
Exactly. Or change the nature of the ability entirely, which is what I kinda gravitate towards. |
Now you can not spam them but if ones increases their combat efficiency one has to reduce their utility.
The problem would not be so much in 1vs1 but in large game modes where one could have total map hack and efficient combat units at the push of button.
I think you may have missed my point. I had agreed with smith that a map hack and a shitty tank thing is a cheap, heavy-handed way to make the valentine synergize with the doctrine. Something a little more subtle would be nice, but that would probably (IMO) come with combat improvements to keep the unit's usefulness balanced out. |
The Valentine's capabilities at this time dont warrant removing any of its abilities. It requires supervision by an anti tank gun and AEC or a proper medium. Not to mention when in the recon mode it becomes completely non combative like the IR searchlight half track. Also to point out it takes three barrages to destroy an okw truck, with amble time between to repair. If this commander is steamrolling anyone, the "OP" factor is just an alternative fact for player failure.
Basically my point about the valentine. Also a fair point about trucks, as the concentration fire ability has a pretty long cooldown and sturmpios have sanic repair speeds, especially when overvetted with a panzershreck or given a minesweeper. |
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To be clear, I don't think it should have good combat capabilities and something as good as a maphack, but my view is that it should be given something less cheesy than maphax, but along the same lines, and more effective AI capabilities to complement the AEC and help with reaching vet1 (for the ability), maybe a long with a 1-2 cp reduction. |
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