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Thread: Hector´s way of fixing light vehicles and call ins18 Oct 2016, 14:11 PM

18 Oct 2016, 14:01 PMAustralian Magic

Only? Huh.....

Yes, depending on your definition. The other "light vehicles" affected by this are troop carriers, which form their own category. The Kübelwagen could also be called a light vehicle in the broadest sense, as by now it lacks the suppression that turned it into a more mobile MG.

That said, in terms of gameplay, nobody would lump the 222, the Stuart, the T-70, the Luchs, the Puma, and the AEC in the same class as the Kübelwagen. In fact, the only two vehicles that are comparable to the Kübelwagen are the now decrepit 221 and the M20.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Allies weapon racks upgrade and USF smoke18 Oct 2016, 13:20 PM

16 Oct 2016, 21:50 PMelchino7

Not sure if coh2.hu is perfect for talking about DPS on small arm fire for infantry when it just talks about averages with just "near and far" as options (which probably is just an average or taking a specific range as value). If this has been done correctly and is up to date, then it's way better.

Well, what exactly is the correct formula? And sure, more distance numbers would be nice, but for an essential overview close and long range is enough.

17 Oct 2016, 06:44 AMEsxile

Should we also decrease RM price to 240mp and BAR price to 30mo so 2xBAR= 1xLMG?

Why? A single BAR at long range already is only insignificantly worse than an LMG 42 (ca. 5 DPS vs. 7 DPS respectively), while a single BAR deals more than twice the damage at close range, which is topped off by being able to fire on the move. Why should that be made even cheaper?

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Considering coming back18 Oct 2016, 13:15 PM

18 Oct 2016, 08:36 AMCartoonVillain

222 got its hp buffed by 33% I believe, 240 -> 320.

This is correct. Relic did this, hoping to make the 222 competitive again (instead of fixing its MG and buffing its armour to appropriate levels, because doing so was more complicated than just slapping on more health). It worked in some sense, but of course it fucked up light vehicle balance even more, making the 222 no longer an option, but a requirement to have any chance at winning for Ostheer.

In: Lobby

Thread: Artillery18 Oct 2016, 13:07 PM

14 Oct 2016, 19:59 PMJackDickolson

And basically everything else is broken, build&forget squad-wiping doom machine.

I fail to see how the ML-20 is supposed to be so much more powerful than the leFH 18. Not to mention that the GrW 34 and the PM-41 are directly balanced to each other, meaning that the GrW 34 outperforms the PM-41 in terms of raw numbers for the sake of fighting squads with more models.

Additionally, neither Katyusha nor Panzerwerfer could ever be build'n'forget weapons simply due to their design. Especially the Panzerwerfer requires risky behaviour to succeed, which in turn means that is has to have the possibility of a significant pay-off, considering the investment risk.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Hector´s way of fixing light vehicles and call ins18 Oct 2016, 12:52 PM

17 Oct 2016, 00:12 AMmiragefla

222 needs a price increase, that's a given with its dirt cheap cost and the bug with its MG fixed. 250-300 manpower and 30-35 fuel with a working MG. Still would like to see the unit reworked to a skrimishers and less of the dirt cheap scouting generalist once changed.

The MG on the 222 never was fixed, despite Relic claiming otherwise for more than three years (post #11 on the official changelog thread).

The problem with the 222 is, that Relic manoeuvred it into a corner when raising its health ridiculously. What it needed instead was a simple armour buff instead, which Relic didn't want to do, because the 222 (for some arbitrary reason known only to Relic) needs to be the only light vehicle susceptible to small-arms fire.

If we were to lower the health of the 222, the double 222 vs. Stuart strategy would stop working (because the Stuart could then overcome both vehicles or at least cripple them enough for the other player to get cold feet, when used properly). It would also make the 222 significantly less powerful against the AEC and T-70. In return, increasing its armour would mean that the 222 suddenly can fulfil its role: fighting against infantry and counter capture harassment.
Of course handheld AT weaponry would still work, so infantry facing the 222 wouldn't be totally fucked when properly equipped.
Let's also assume that Relic fixes the MG through some miracle, thus making the 222 the strongest infantry killer out there. That would suddenly mean, that the MG needed to be nerfed, while the pricing could stay the same. Combined with a proper adjustment of Ostheer teching (another thing Relic refuses to do, because why the fuck should everyone have a fair teching system with fair costs and timings in an "e-sports" game?) the 222 would then be even faster in the field, improving the early Ostheer situation during a time when the first BARs start hitting the field, previously allowing especially Riflemen to run amok. And in return, the 222 would be much more easily countered by light vehicles, necessitating a certain foresight into how to use it. Giving the 222 a proper vet1 ability like "overdrive" would also give it the necessary mobility to survive later on despite vehicles like the Stuart or the T-70.

If it were up to me, both the 222 and the 251 should become significantly more resilient against infantry (the Universal Carrier has more armour than the 251 for fucks sake! that thing is outgunned by a single Rifleman squad), with the 222 becoming more vulnerable against vehicles instead. The 251 is already a fucking joke, that gets blown to smithereens by anything, so no additional nerf to health or mobility is required.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Allies weapon racks upgrade and USF smoke16 Oct 2016, 11:44 AM

6 Oct 2016, 23:52 PMsteffenbk1

Like the riflemen having the ability to upgrade with 2xbars or 1xm1919 (two are just ridicules),

And you don't think two BARs are ridiculous? Let's just take a closer look at that. Keep in mind that the numbers here are maximums, and that Rifleman numbers are calculated with double-BAR upgrades (3x Garand, 2x BAR per squad). The numbers are taken from stat.coh2.hu:

DPS (vet 0, raw damage w/o rec. accuracy factors)	Rifleman Squad	Grenadier Squad
close range	38.30	24.88
close range w/ LMG	52.38	26.32
long range	9.20	9.64
long range w/ LMG	15.52	14.42

So two BARs take away any advantage that the LMG 42 gave Grens on Riflemen. Okay, but what about actual numbers, that matter in the game (i.e. numbers with received accuracy factors)?

DPS (vet 0, raw damage w/ rec. accuracy factors)	Rifleman Squad	Grenadier Squad
close range	34.85	24.13
close range w/LMG	47.67	25.53
long range	8.37	9.35
long range w/LMG	14.12	13.99

Hey, there's a difference. Does it change the story? Doesn't look like it. And that difference only grows bigger as the game goes on, because Riflemen suddenly get massive received accuracy bonuses and some weapon bonuses. That is not just "different roles, just L2P and move your Grens correctly!", that looks like massive overperformance.

So what some people in this thread said about the BAR simply isn't true: Riflemen with double BARs don't need to get close. They sure as hell should, but doing so just became a nice,. big, red cherry on top of the cake, because they already outdamage any other infantry squad at long range, except Obersoldaten and Riflemen with at least one M1919. Not to mention that the BAR behaves like an SMG ingame (all LMGs that can be fired on the move do, as do all assault rifles, there is basically no difference), so you don't really lose that much when using it like one compared to non-mobile LMGs.

Double weapon upgrades as a whole are entirely fucked up. Be it PzGren's double Panzerschreck, double BAR and M1919s, or anything else that can be slapped on infantry in pairs. They all need to go, and they all need to go now rather than later. And if you don't believe me, just take a look at the numbers above again, and do the math for vet3...

P.S.: While we're at it: Some people would now go on and say that the BAR costs the same as an LMG 42, and thus two of them should outperform it. Sure, but that is neither part of the problem (if you can pick up a second BAR that was dropped, nobody will complain), because I'm not calling for a nerf of the BAR. I should simply be made impossible to pick up a second one on an already upgraded squad, is all.
On top of that comes of course the American mortar. Why would you go for grenades and invest micro and ammo to use them, when you can simply outsource that job to a manpower investment?

What this actually means is, that USF now needs to spend less ammo on extras, and can go straight for the BAR-craze. Grenades are handled by the mortar which, while being less effective at wiping a careless enemy, means you're floating ammo like a Soviet without PPSH-upgrades.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Ostheer - The Dead Circle vs USF12 Oct 2016, 14:04 PM

11 Oct 2016, 20:22 PMEsxile

You do not save up for T2, you usually tech BP1 when you have the 45 fuel, 100mp/45fu and then T2 when you have the 20fu, 200mp/20fu.
You can delay t2 if you decide to go heavy T1 but that's a choice, not a problem of saving up. Or you did something wrong early game. This is why I say if you have trouble to save up, there is a problem.

USF T1 gives you ltn for 50 fuel. But you have to invest 10 fuel more on healing and 15 fuel more in BARs/Zook in order to reach the same level of service Ostheer get once BP1 unlocked + 60muni healing bunker.
Prices are already balanced around it.

Os: 80+100+200+150mp + 10+45+20fu +60mu
USF: 200+150+250mp +50+10+15fu and I'm not including grenades.

You are also not including timing and the later teching stages (to be fair, the latter one wasn't what you were talking about). Sure, the match-up is kind of fair, even though Ostheer pays more manpower and ammo for the same service. But when you start to include that Ostheer has a longer research AND has to pull back a scouting/flanking unit from the front to then start building that stupid building, you suddenly lag even further behind.
On top of that come the American officers. With every tech, you get a free unit. A unit that in most cases can more than just go toe to toe with Ostheer infantry. And those free units come with more than just combat capability. Every good player will use their Captain to pump out a Stuart even faster. Or just take a look at the Major's forward retreat, something that Ostheer doesn't have at all and something that OKW has to pay dearly to get.

These things are simply not well-thought out. Sure, they make for a cool faction, but not for a balanced game. The community was happy when the OKW free teching benefits were gone, and rightly so. Now we need the same thing to happen to USF.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: October 4th Update5 Oct 2016, 17:18 PM

5 Oct 2016, 11:18 AMSchmitz