Uhm, any opinions on including the practice tournament games? |
Are you aware that most players that go Mobile Defense dont tech?
People go Mobile Defense because they dont have to tech. The enemy has to tech to get the light/medium vehicle. That puts you in a super big advantage. The solution is quite rather simple, lock the vehicles behind tech. Puma in t2, Command p4 in t3. People will move on and will try to find another form of call in meta till there is no more.
Uhm, well, in the case of the Puma this will hardly make any difference. According to my replay analysis tool so far there was no instance in GCS2 where a Puma was called in before T2 was up.
Besides, I think call-ins should be a situational alternative to teching. It only becomes a problem if it turns out to be the go-to solution... |
I'd suggest to replace "Panzer Tactician" with something like Riegel mines. This would make the Puma more risky to use and reduce the value of the doctrine overall.
If that is not sufficient, up the fuel cost of the Puma by 5 or 10 FU.
|
I'm wondering whether the prime candidate for OH should be Mobile Defense; not because it is bad (I guess that is the basis for the other nominees), but because it is too good and will tend to overshadow other doctrines. It has consistently been among the top picks over the years.
I'm more for subtle stuff. Maybe replacing "Panzer tactician" with - uhm - say, Riegel mines would make it less attractive?
Instead of just revamping commanders, I think they should condense the wehr and soviet commanders first, prune out the overlapping ones and remove the abilities no one uses.
I know that there won't be many that share my opinion, but I never got why the overlap is generally disliked... Actually, I think it was done like that on purpose. This is most obvious in the SOV commanders: By default, Russians just had conscripts and weak tanks. Better infantry or late game AT options/tanks could be added via commander.
You basically have the choice to be able to upgrade the Conscripts (PPsh), or supplement with elite infantry like Guards or Shocks. When it came to late game AT, did you want to go for T-34/85s, IS-2, ISU-152 or mark Target? Since one of each is likely required, you need to offer a lot of diverse options via mix and match, so you end up with multiple tactics with guards or shocks or PPsh or T-34/85s and a lot of overlap.
This sort of emulates tech trees (although in a simplistic way) and I can see why the concept is viewed as inferior to actual tech trees of CoH1. However, given that we are stuck with the system as it is now, reducing overlap would mean you effectively would more or less end up with Guards, Shocks, T-34/85s, ML-120 being available in one or two commanders only. Good luck figuring out something that makes sense with this as premise without creating auto-pick commanders.
So, yeah, there is a lot of commander abilities that overlap. Also, there are a couple of commanders that combine the weakest version for each task from the available options or poor synergy and thus will hardly ever be picked. But how exactly would removing those make the game better?
Checking the meta of previous tournaments: Yes, there always were meta commanders and completely unused commanders, and that's how it always will be. Still, SOV players used a significant number of different commanders and even OH that had more dominant FotM commanders still sported a larger variety in picks than the "basically no overlap in commanders" factions OKW, USF and UKF.
|
What I'm saying is for this game this is the only way to reliably measure faction balance. [...]
This is reliable data.
Well, just because this is one of the few if not the only way to gauge faction balance doesn't make it reliable.
Not saying that the numbers are meaningless, far from that. They are probably the best thing we have; automatch doesn't work, really, because the number of games between top players is really small (I know, I looked into this and discarded the idea); and then people would argue anyways that the players were potentially not playing to win but trying something out.
That said, as others pointed out there are tons of biases here (player preference, map pool, fixed map positions) and if you breakdown the numbers further to smaller subsets to get rid of some of these, you again look at obviously small sample sizes.
So, yes, the numbers can certainly indicate some trends, but they are no hard proof (just compare OST/SOV and OKW/SOV winrates for both tourneys).
|
Given that GCS2 offers you a full data set https://gcs2.org/standings/brackets (hover over games for full details and to download replays)
Very well, organized
Downloaded all replays now; seems like the replay for G1 of VonIvan vs. Torano is incorrect (seems to be a game vs. the AI). Any chance the correct replay is available somewhere? |
I won the first one (me as USF vs Hulk's OH).
Thanks! |
Hey,
you are right.
They played 2 games and it was 1-1 i guess. But he had to conceded because of RL stuff. So we changed the result, that everyone can see it was not a normal bracket.
We all hope that Theo can play in the other 2 cups
Do you happen to remember which one Theo actually won?
Theo? |
Finally, we have the UKF meta from SMC and SCC5 tournaments; there were 25 game where UKF was picked.
More on the background and the OH meta is here.
The SOV breakdown is here.
Breakdown for OKW is here.
The USF data is here.
Players were:
games | Players |
| Refero |
| Siddolio |
| RedxWings |
| Caesar, Frost, VonAsten, Fortune, Dave |
Commander picks
Commanders in loadout
"Buildings"
unit | total | games | of |
| Modified M6 Mine |
| | | |
| 3-inch Mortar Emplacement |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| Trench |
| | | |
| Fuel Cache (SOV) |
| | | |
|
Infantry units
unit | total | games | of |
| Infantry Section |
| | | |
| Royal Engineers |
| | | |
| Ordnance QF 6-Pounder ATG |
| | | |
| Vickers HMG |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| Commando Glider Insertion |
| | | |
| .55 cal Armor-Piercing Sniper |
| | | |
| Infiltration Commandos |
| | | |
| Tank Hunter Infantry Section |
| | | |
|
Vehicles
unit | total | games | of |
| Cromwell Mk. IV Cruiser Tank |
| | | |
| Universal Carrier |
| | | |
| AEC Mk. III |
| | | |
| Centaur AA Mk. II Cruiser Tank |
| | | |
| Sherman Firefly |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| Vanguard Operation Crocodile |
| | | |
| Churchill Mk. VII |
| | | |
| Comet Tank |
| | | |
| Resupply Half-track |
| | | |
| Land Mattress |
| | | |
|
Teching choices
| Company Command Post | 76% |
Refero (9), Siddolio (5), RedxWings (2), Caesar (1), Frost (1), VonAsten (1) |
| Hammer tech | 5% |
Siddolio (1) |
| Anvil tech | 5% |
Siddolio (1) |
| Requisition Bofors QF 40mm | 0% |
|
| Requisition AEC Mk. III | 44% |
Refero (6), Siddolio (2), Frost (1), VonAsten (1), Fortune (1) |
| Bolster sections | 84% |
Refero (9), Siddolio (5), RedxWings (3), Caesar (1), Frost (1), VonAsten (1), Dave (1) |
| Unlock No. 36M 'Mills Bomb' | 44% |
Refero (5), Siddolio (4), Caesar (1), Fortune (1) |
| Research Weapon Racks | 36% |
Refero (4), Siddolio (2), Caesar (1), Frost (1), VonAsten (1) |
Build orders:
1st unit | 2nd unit | 3rd unit | 4th unit | 5th unit |
| 23 |
|
| 17 |
|
| 16 |
|
| 5 |
|
|
| 4 |
|
| 3 | | 1 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 2 | | 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 | | 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 3 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
|
Ok, here we go with the USF meta from SMC and SCC5 tournaments; there were 47 game where USF was picked.
More on the background and the OH meta is here.
The SOV breakdown is here.
Breakdown for OKW is here.
Finally, the UKF units can be found here.
Players were:
games | Players |
| Dave |
| Tobis |
| Siddolio, oziligath |
| Caesar, EmpiresCorrupt |
| Jae for Jett, Brosras, Sob3r |
| ProdigY, Frost, Noggano, Theodosios, ikab, VonIvan |
Commander picks
Commanders in loadout
"Buildings"
unit | total | games | of |
| M7 Light Anti-Vehicle Mines |
| | | |
| M5 Mine |
| | | |
| M5 Mine |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| Fighting Position |
| | | |
| Fuel Cache |
| | | |
| Munitions Cache |
| | | |
|
Infantry units
unit | total | games | of |
| Riflemen |
| | | |
| M2HB .50 cal |
| | | |
| Rear Echolon |
| | | |
| M1 81mm Mortar Team |
| | | |
| M1 57mm Anti-Tank Gun |
| | | |
| Air Dropped Combat Group |
| | | |
| Paratroopers |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| Paradrop M1 57mm ATG |
| | | |
| Paradrop .50cal M2HB |
| | | |
| Lieutenant |
| | | |
| Assault Engineers |
| | | |
| Major |
| | | |
| M1 75mm Pack Howitzer |
| | | |
| Captain |
| | | |
|
Vehicles
unit | total | games | of |
| M4A3 Sherman |
| | | |
| WC54 ¾ Ton Ambulance |
| | | |
| M15A1 AA Half-track |
| | | |
| M36 'Jackson' Tank Destroyer |
| | | |
| M20 Utility Car |
| | | |
| M10 'Wolverine' |
| | | |
| M8 Greyhound |
| | | |
| M5A1 Stuart |
| | | |
|
unit | total | games | of |
| M8A1 Howitzer Motor Carriage |
| | | |
| M21 Mortar Half-track |
| | | |
| M26 Pershing |
| | | |
| WC51 Military Truck |
| | | |
| M4A3E8 Sherman 'Easy Eight' |
| | | |
| 105mm Bulldozer Sherman |
| | | |
| M3 Halftrack Assault Group |
| | | |
|
Teching choices
| Lieutenant built | 87% |
|
Tobis (10), Dave (8), Caesar (3), oziligath (3), Siddolio (3), EmpiresCorrupt (3), Jae for Jett (2), Brosras (2), Sob3r (2), and 5 others (1) |
| Captain built | 26% |
|
Dave (5), EmpiresCorrupt (2), oziligath (2), Frost (1), Siddolio (1), ikab (1) |
| Major built | 68% |
|
Dave (11), Tobis (7), Jae for Jett (2), Brosras (2), Siddolio (2), ProdigY (1), Frost (1), Noggano (1), and 5 others (1) |
| Lieutenant start | 81% |
|
Tobis (10), Dave (6), Caesar (3), oziligath (3), Siddolio (3), EmpiresCorrupt (3), Jae for Jett (2), Brosras (2), Sob3r (2), and 4 others (1) |
| Captain start | 19% |
|
Dave (5), Frost (1), Siddolio (1), oziligath (1), ikab (1) |
| Weapon Rack unlock | 68% |
|
Dave (11), Tobis (6), Siddolio (4), Brosras (2), EmpiresCorrupt (2), ProdigY (1), Jae for Jett (1), Noggano (1), and 4 others (1) |
| Grenade Package | 34% |
|
Dave (9), EmpiresCorrupt (2), Frost (1), Theodosios (1), Tobis (1), Caesar (1), ikab (1) |
Build orders:
1st unit | 2nd unit | 3rd unit | 4th unit | 5th unit |
| 37 |
|
| 32 |
|
| 29 |
|
| 22 |
|
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 | | 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 | | 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 4 |
|
| 3 | | 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 10 |
|
| 9 |
|
| 9 |
|
| 7 |
|
| 4 | | 3 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 2 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
| 1 |
|
|