This is just a stupid idea, unless we are playing a year and half patch ago. You don't want to recrew support weapons with elite units, due to reinforcement cost.
A .50 cal with a Pathfinder crew is insanely good due the accuracy modifier Path's get. Should you spam Pathfinders and .50 cal's? Of course not, but it's worth stating it's a okay idea. |
Played plenty of games in which I have not given my volks shreks and they gain vet fine.
The shrek allows them to leap frog to high levels of vet. How often do you see volks not get vet 5? Vet 5 should be hard to get and important if you do, not an automatic upgrade on a unit.
I agree with you, the shrek makes their vet problematic, remove it and they are fine. They will always gain vet faster than any other OKW unit (other than the MG34) because they are a cheap unit normally shooting at expensive things. |
You dont necessarily have to give a cheap mainline infantry Shreks. Yes, Volks will be less spamed if you take the shreks away BUT you can give them either LMG or MPs with faust ability. With faust, OKW will have more of a reason to use Raket(assuming a buff after change) to finish off slowed down vehicles. The underlying problem Volks faces in early game is that they need faust, 1 shrek can hardly hold off M3s.
Ostheer's mainline infantry unit has a LMG and faust and Ostheer has literally the worst early game of any faction. In what insane world do you think it's a brilliant idea to take a well preforming infantry unit, and make it just like the starting unit of the only other Axis faction.
The Pupchen should be buffed no matter if shreks are removed or not, as the thing is bloody garbage anyway you slice it. And I agree that Volks can't face M3's, you know why? Because pushing is a insanely dumb mechanic! |
If your wondering why we can't have the Japs in COH2 this is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuUR95-o_fw#t=26 they lost to the Soviet Union in 39. |
Hmmm... I can't follow your logic.
Its almost as if people think a building unit that costs no resources should have no impact in battles. Hmmmm imagine that...
Machine gun nests in the HQ area cost nothing, but can affect battles. If we are going by the logic things you don't pay for shouldn't have an effect on the game why do they exist? |
Its almost as if people think a building unit that costs no resources should have no impact in battles. Hmmmm imagine that...
Agreed, remove the machine gun nests from the HQ area's.
a) The properties of an OKW building under setup have literally zero bearing on a halftrack's ability to push infantry.
b) Every scout car and light vehicle in the game must be purchased with fuel and manpower, and take time to accumulate fuel and build, literally none are available in the first crucial engagements when fuel is capped and map control gets carved out. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact you are trying to tie the elimination of this abusive strat to nerfing all other factions' light vehicles.
c) "Pushing with it is risky, exposes it to small arms fire" - so does pushing with light vehicles, which require teching, cost fuel and manpower, are not immediately available on the field, and whose counters can hit the field by the time they are on the field.
sWS IS COMPLETELY FREE AND IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE. Until you realize how this makes sWS pushing qualitatively different to all other light vehicles in the game, there is no point in discussing it any further.
Pushing is dumb no matter what, remove it from all units expect tanks. This isn't paticularly about the sWS itself, rather, that pushing is insanely dumb. |
I think you really underestimate the power of the Volks. If you are getting over run by infantry you can use the 10 munition grenade volley (in a number of commanders), pick a commander with an MG34, or use a Kubel. Volks in cover do great. Kubel against shocks is great. Force him to smoke early and then use volks to pick away at him. You can quickly move the kubel to keep the shocks from advancing, and if the kubel dies you still get the fuel back.
To top that they can build green cover, have a ton of abilities, get good grenades, are a large squad, get excellent vet bonuses, and are cheap. The upgrade to shreks also makes them potent against infantry in cover since they can blow the cover away quickly. Seriously what more do you want with this unit, it is the Swiss Army knife of units?
I agree with you that OKW needs a counter to early vehicles, but right now volks are straight up stupid. For cost they cannot be beat. As they scale in vet they become extremely potent, this is why we see volks blobs so often.
Volks get beat out by every single baseline infantry unit in the game stat wise, of course at vet 0 which is the early game everyone starts in. And yes volks with commander upgrades are better, but still they can't stand up to Shocks/Rifle blobs alone.
The reason they scale so well dude is because they vet so fast due to 1. very lost cost unit, and 2. They have a very high damage weapon in the shrek. Take the shrek away and they are not nearly as good due to not being able to get vet.
What do Schrecks have with Volks/Rifle or Volks/Con matchups or balance? Will removing Schrecks somehow impair Volks ability to fight them? Do Volks need obers to fight Shocks? I don't get it.
OKW early game against infantry is not a problem (Riflespam can be a bit overwhelming, but Ostheer has the same problem, so we know it's nothing Volks related). Schreck changes do not apply there.
What shreks have to do is that it gives volks a reason to be built as opposed to say, more sturms or getting a second kubel. It also makes them useful late game as well. The problem is if you take away the thing that makes it good over the arch of the game, you need to give it something worth while to make people want to build it! And OKW has the same troubles Ostheer has early game, and especially on urban maps as OKW has no mortar/good indirect fire.
By far the second best t0 inf in the game after Rifleman. They are awsome with awsome abilities. If you use a grenade you critically put back your first shrek, and Volks lose out to cons at medium close range every time. Yes they become more useful later on, so why take away what makes them better later on. |
You want me to crew it with shocks/obers as American?
Why would you crew a weapon with Obers ever? Their DPS is all tied up in the MG34.
Also shocks on support weapons is also useless since their DPS is all at ranges <10 m. All you get is really high reinforcement costs and slightly more armor, which is partly negated by a received accuracy bonus the opposing side gets for free.
Blobs should be suppressed by a single MG if the blob walks right into it. It should not take multiple MG's to suppress an a-move blob. Without this feature punishment for blobbing is not very strong, as it is now, and requires huge amounts of micro and gimmicks (demo packs) to punish blobbers.
When you ask for multiple MG's to stop a blob you are asking me to put all my eggs in one basket, since the MG fields must overlap considerably to gain the advantage of both being present. As such the other player is quite capable now of a simple flank with minimal skill or talent required.
I said it was the best MG in the game due to the stats it gets from Shocks/Obers such as armor, accuracy, ect. Didn't really have much to say other than that, and I agree MG's should punish blobs. |
I completely disagree.
Legitimate question : what gives you the slightest notion vet0 Volks should be good?
Cheapest non-engi infantry in the game, that requires NO TECHING whatsoever, a durable 5-man squad that can throw grenades and salvage and can reach veterancy 5.
In a faction with Kubels, Sturmpioneers and Obersoldaten (where most commanders ALSO have doctrinal infantry or MG43).
They aren't durable at all at vet 0, and with out the shrek upgrade they would have very very little use past the first 7 minutes. They also on vet up so fast because of the shrek, it's pretty rare to see a Vet 5 OKW unit outside of Volks because it just takes such a massive amount of time when your only shooting at and damaging infantry.
The reason they should be good is that Sturmpio's are no were near as good as before, and the Kubel will die very fast if you don't micro it well. I would be perfectly fine with them getting pushed up to 240 MP if they were given a buff in return for losing the shrek.
The MG34 is also worse than the MG42 in every way until it reaches vet 3, before that all it has is a bigger firing ark.
EDIT: Think about what OKW is facing at the start of the game: Rifles were are bar none the best early infantry unit in the game and come out with no teching, con spam which is very easy to do, and then shocks which will normally come out before you get your scher up and Obers being produced to count. |
Pushing is kinda stupid with every unit, and worse than that is crushing. But, A free starting unit which is available from the beginning, can crush and can scout for you should bot be able to push your units out of cover. I'm not proud of it but I myself push those poor Cons and Rifles out of cover and suppress the hell out of them with my truck and suppress them. It's game changing.
Pushing and crushing with Scout cars or half-tracks is not good IMO, but at least it's risky and you have to Micro your unit. But sWS is something else, too early, can fall back easily, and it's not that risky. If it gets destroyed it's a huge blow for OKW, but people usually use it to push your first squad and then fall back.
It's extremely risky to push with it as it 1. take far more damage from small arms than it used it and 2. If it dies you cannot literally give you Volks shreks for a long period of time.
It can't even crush anymore, so if your going to get rid of the ability for it to push just take that away from all Half tracks and scout cars because it's dumb that a scout car can run right up to a shrek squad and push it around negating all the effort to put into getting anti-armor out on the field. |