I would happily upgrade my grenadier squad twice, but I can't. This doesn't mean that a riflemen and infantry sections should be better just because they have more upgrades and that the basic design of a faction should be negated by powerful vet, upgrades and indirect fire. What is the use of this faction's design then?
The problem is that the Ostheer mainline infantry unit isn't capable of reliably fighting riflemen, infantry sections or penal battalions. These units gain immense power with vetereancy, which further hampers the Ostheer mainline infantry unit. Grenadiers need to be in cover to fight effectively, yet we have double bar riflemen and double bren infantry sections destroying grenadiers in cover. USF mortar and British mortar pit both deny cover to the grenadiers in a very effective way, meaning you can't utilize the grenadiers as they were meant to be utilized.
Now people argue that you should support your grenadiers with combined arms, including mg42s and mortars. The only problem is that riflemen are supported by the USF turbo laser guided mortar that just destroys weapon teams in mostly 1 or 2 blows, including grenadiers that need cover to fight effectively. The British mortar pit does the same. On top of this, riflemen can utilize smoke and grenades on top of this turbo laser guided mortar. All these facts in essence mean that your weapon teams aren't safe anywhere and can't support your grenadiers reliably.
The only 'mainline' infantry unit the grenadiers can reliably counter are conscripts. Conscripts themselves are a joke. This shows the horrible state of conscripts and the somewhat lackluster state of grenadiers. Something needs to be done.
Edit: not even to mention when an Allied light vehicle comes out and insta gibs half of your grenadier squad on the first shot.
At the end, only your edit make sens, yes the issue is around Soviet and USF having better infantry and then better light tanks while from a balance perspective, it should be something opposed. The 222 is really potent for sure for its price but it is too fast denied by Guards, it is a bit better vs USF but cannot really overcome the gap early game made with the Mortar/RM combo.
1- Grenadiers aren't mean to go toes to toes alone vs Penal or RM upgraded. Accept it because it is balanced.
2- There is a problem with the pacing between model which increase the sentiment Grens/pzgren are underwhelming.
3- USF mortar is still too potent, nothing new under the sun, there is nobody to say the opposite.
4- T-70 and Stuart are too potent and come over the already Sov/USF domination while 222 or 251 aren't in great help or already well countered by Guards/zooks.
All Ostheer needs is a 5 man squad upgrade in the late game (maybe tied to BP2/BP3), and some sort of squad spacing fix. All their support weapons are good enough, but not enough to save grens from getting roflstomped lategame by superior allied inf. Maybe some adjustments to their tanks too, namely P4 price/penetration, Panther moving accuracy/reload speed, and Tiger frontal armor.
That, or nerf allied infantry scaling/bullsht double weps.
Pzgren aren't roflstomped at all late game vs infantry. Gren cost 240mp, how can you imagine that a 240/60 unit should be able to go toes to toes with 280/60-120 unit?
Now I'm not saying there isn't a balance issue with Ostheer, I play a lot Ostheer since the USFMortar patch and I know there is an issue. But making Ostheer frontline forces more potent isn't going to solve anything.
If Relic could simply modify Gren/pzgren squad formation in first hand, we would be able to better see the real issue with this point.
Now about general balance, Ostheer vs Allied faction. Ostheer shouldn't be still on the backfoot when T-70 or Stuart hit the field. Those units should be arriving when the match become balanced and bring some decision making for the allied player when entering late game while at the same time the Ostheer player do the same, which is absolutely not the case today. Those units have become not brainer because Ostheer early stage is too underwhelming ATM and almost impossible to recover at mid-game vs a good player.
I know that the rant of some Axis fanboys here is way too much over the edge but I honestly think that you have to be a fool to say that Axis and Allies are on the absolute same level in terms of winning possibility right now.
If you simply ignore all Katitof + Australian Magic posts, I think this board can develop some very interesting conversations. Sadly there are no many topics where they are not.
We can guess the dream team is about the people thinking the same way you are and ignoring anybody having a different point of view. Remembering me a team listening only half of the community comments to build their balance patch.
The main reason I lose playing Axis AT game or random game is because my fellow teammates never bother to build a midgame tank, they all wait to get their super late game panther or king tiger. It is more visible with the OKW. OKW players, friends of mine included, are completely denying themselves their mid game options. Not a Pz4, sometime not even a Luch. -Hey I save for the King tiger. Too bad they have plenty of counter at that time and you already lost your infantry.
I have to admit a lot of OKW players are still playing that game as before the last patch and they mainly lose because of that first.
For the Ostheer, honestly playing Allied when I see an Ostheer player with Pz4/Stug/Ostwind intel bulletin, I know I'll face/play with someone good, who understand the meta and the game will be hard. But too many Ostheer players are still spaming HMG/cache into T4. They haven't yet release that USF got a mortar and the new meta here is to spam them early game. You can't play anymore only conservative as Ostheer, you have to balance your army, wall of HMG42 doesn't work anymore.
Now yes, probably Allied factions have the edge today, but this is not the main reason of many Axis defeat.
Last but not least, one question, how Volks can feel weaker than last patch vs RM? they got STG instead of shreck, their DPS is better in all aspects when RM dps haven't change.
I guess what we are seeing in reality with the dominance of allies at the moment is just a figment of our imagination. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Oh yes. You'd know a lot about that, wouldn't you?
The option is there to have one or two zooks, that is the point. So if you have two zooks split over two squads you can still retain the same lmg/bar dps of a double lmg/bar squad AND same dps as a double zook squad but with the risk spread in half. Your whole blob is likely to be far more devastating then any other blob. People don't play like this so much in 1v1 but it's real in 2v2.
Also you mention flame nades on Volks as if REs and Rifles don't have any special capabilities themselves, that in their specific usages dwarfs the utility of the flame nade. Rifles have very useful smoke grenades and a pretty awesome regular grenade. REs have ability to build tank traps and fighting positions. Why complain about overall utility of pre schreknerf Volks when rear echelons and Rifles are so easily combined and share together a utility that surpasses the Volks all around offerings?
So there is only 2 or 3 zooks in the blob, how is it an issue impossible to manage with a Pz4/Ostwind with some proper support.
How tank traps and FP are something giving an edge to a blob?
Smoke grenades are double edges sword, they don't shot at you neither.
Grenade are powerful indeed but flamnade have a faster animation, guarantee a model kill on hit and deny area which for your opponent to micro a lot. Now I'm not saying a blob of RM with grenade isn't powerful, but volks with flamnade + shreck was far better.
Rear echelons have same exact purchase price and reinforce cost as Volks.
And as far as schrek damage and pen vs zook goes, you conveniently discount the fact that you can dual wield 2 bazookas on rear echelons if you wish, and many people do, or put one on each of your lmg'd squads.
There is also the little fact that zooks have 2 seconds faster rate of fire than schreks. 2 zooks firing 2 seconds a volley faster means that, all in all, zook blobs can end up being more powerful than schrek blobs ever were.
The problem with the volks shreck blob wasn't the shreck itself but the fact it gives the blob good and reliable AT capability + good and reliable AI capability aka 4 men firing AI + flamnade and all of that combined with cheap to maintain and reinforce unit.
If we follow your argumentation, Sturmpio with Shreck is as good as was Volks with Shreck, which is, from your own words, not the case = they are not cheap, their AI capability is strongly reduced with 1 shreck.
Now, I know what you mean with the zook blob, but I haven't see it as a problem playing Ostheer since, RE or RM, their AI capability are completely nullified with 2 zooks, I just call a couple of pzgren and they perfectly do the job. I guess a couple of Obers would do even better.
From an honest perspective, RE is maybe a kind of problem since the unit is cheap, but not anymore as it was before. But on the other hand, they don't have flamthrower except if using a specific doctrine. So in fact, here again, call some pzgren or obers and you've counter you opponent.
Playing Ostheer, I feel much more pain facing guards spam than zook spam. Imo guard are still too good AI with their ptrs rifles. Now that Penals are viable, they should lose any AI capability.
Only good for people who don't micro squads and get of cheap shots. It may be useful to finish off almost dead tanks - but if your tank is so far forward that it gets 1-shot by rak, you deserve to lose the tank.
And then you build 2 raketens. half of any medium tank life gone in 1 salvo. But I thought good players now how to bring raketen into medium range in camo so they can shot twice before their target get out of range.
Anyway, arguments based on "only good players or only bad players blablabla..." are stupid. following your argumentation, if you can't do it, you're a bad player.
Stuart Stun shot should be replace with turret jam. So it makes the Stuart mobility still relevant.