Then we are speaking about an ideal situation that happens in a fairy land but not in COH2. 'Cause TODAY soviet core army + callins > any axis core army + callins.
If we are to consider only the core armies I can see your point, except T34 rush is a good tactic and it can win you the game if you don't screw it up. But nothing will be the same again I heard so I am waiting - like the others - the next patch that is currently alpha tested.
Thats just it, we are discussing the core army only, because it shows us that any changes done to the callins will cause soviets to plummet to the worst army.
The Soviet core needs a revamp, and callins are not a reason to say otherwise.
Also, you should try T70 rushing. It is much more effective and doesn't cost as much fuel. |
That's exactly the point. T34/76 can come fast, messing all oponent's line.
No shit. What about the call-ins that will suplement your T34/76s? You can confortably call an IS2, or 85s. Together with your 76 will win you the battle. As simple as that.
If you went early T34/76s then you better get that map control or consider playing other game....
Dunno, I was allways able to build more T34s than my opponent could build his P4s. And this is quite simple: the teching costs for ostheer + the fact that ostheer NEEDS SOME VEHICLE from T2 , the AC or at least the SDKFZ, it simply CANNOT PLAY WITHOUT ONE OF THOSE. That also, costs fuel. Not soviet's case. The idea is, as soviet, you can confortably build a T34 as your first vehicle. At this point, any Axis faction is way behind.
Aren't you forgeting the call-ins again?
Dunno, but maybe you can explain to me why OKW player is struggling in late game trying to hold the line with one Jagdpanzer against a su-85 and double T34/85s? Or with a KT against 4 T3485s?
How an ostheer player builds his first P4 way after the T34 lurked free on the map for several minutes? And so on....
I don't think you have been paying attention to this thread. The point was explaining why the callin meta is such a big problem in the game, and the reason why the IS2 is designed as a more survivable tank than the tiger.
If you assume no callins, you see why soviets are so weak in game. Their core army CANNOT stand on its own legs lategame, and that is why callin tanks are a requirement for soviet players in all gamemodes. |
Again, apart from the SU-76 NOTHING on your List really underperforms. The 34/76 can arrive very early and take your enemy by surprise and you can build them in swarms and overrun your enemy. SU-85 does its job really well and the T70 fucks shit up left and right. Also you didnt even mention the Katyusha also a Soviet stock unit that does really well.
The thing is that the T34/76 DOES underperform. Don't think of the tank itself, think of it in the context of soviet teching. If you go for T3, it is the heaviest tank you will get for the rest of the game. That is not a vehicle that you can really expect to win off of unless you have most of the map for the rest of the game, as you WILL lose some. In terms of armor swarming, it costs 310mp and 100fu, which is 40mp and 25fu less than a P4. That means that for every 4 P4s, you get a T34/76. That is not a numerical advantage worth having, since the P4 is not only a better tank to begin with, but it also scales better (armor bonus at vet 2, blitz). Not to mention that the price to tech to a P4 and the price to tech to a T34/76 is the same I believe.
The T70, as I stated before, is fine.
The SU85 is a good unit. I agree. It can counter medium armor very well. However, remember that we are looking at soviets in terms of lategame potential. If the Soviet player has su85s, and the axis player has a KT + panther or just 2 panthers, the Soviet player will be hard pressed to hold the line. Not only that, but the SU85s cannot chase, so killing armor is just about out of the question. \ But remember that going T4 means that you do not have access to a frontline AI unit. And if we are looking at soviets without callin meta doctrines, that means that you do not have a hard counter to lategame german infantry, such as Pfus, obers, falls, and lmg grens. Relying on conscripts won't do you any good, the only real way to have a chance is to have gone a penal heavy opening and gotten some vetted penals out, or to have good RNG with indirect fire. The SU85 should at least be able to hit targets, its accuracy is not good enough IMO. Not to mention that your entire lategame tier structure gets countered if your enemy gets a JT/ELE/Pak43.
I did not mention the Katyusha or the M5 halftrack because I am talking abut front line units that you will be structuring your army around. The katyusha is a good unit, but you cannot expect your frontline to stay together if you focus on building them. You need to put fuel towards units such as SU85s to protect your units. The M5 is in a similar boat. It is a good unit, but comes a little late, and is a support unit. It won't be killing units, and all it does is keep your conscripts/ support teams on the front line, since its AA upgrade is quite useless.
So please, tell me how the current soviet tech system is any good lategame? Both German factions have access to highly armored units (KT panther sturmpanzer) which allow them to survive in the lategame with their stock army. USF has the synergy between the M36 and that Sherman being in the same tier to make up for their weaknesses. WHat do soviets have? |
What terrible nondoctrinaly units are we talking about here? Apart from the SU-76 (and maybe the t34/76) every unit they can field is decent and they can have a lot of stuff on the field all the time, which many of you seem to forget.
T34/76
T-70
Su-76
SU-85
^These units are supposed to form the backbone of the soviet lategame. Not only can you not have access to all of them at the same time, but not one of them (with the exception of the T70), is performing up to its cost.
The T34/76 is too expensive for what it gives you. It is a decent tank, but it is not worth 310mp and 100fu.
The SU-76 needs no introduction.
The Su-85 works well, but it needs an accuracy buff. It has a hard time hitting targets that are moving, and does even worse on the move (rotation counts as movement in game).
If the T34/76 and the SU85 came together, they would make more sense, but as independent "top tier" units for the soviets, they are not nearly good enough. |
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I don't want to see more lmgs. I would like to see an STG upgrade package to give volksgrens 3 Pgren STGs, so that they become a powerful force at mid, close range. This would make sense in terms of the historical usage of volksgrenadiers and also fit more in their useage in game. This way, the Ostheer and OKW base infantry aren't just clones in the lategame. We already have obers for long range firepower. |
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Part of the reasoning behind the soviet IS2 having so much more armor is the fact that it fights generally better AT units. Units like the pak40, Panther, JT, elephant, and the pak43 are much better options than anything that allied players have. On top of this, it is also the only real "lategame" tank that the soviets have, as compared to the panther for both axis factions. The soviets are forced to rely on terrible units nondoctrinaly, so they naturally crutch on doctrines that provide them with lategame power.
I can assure you right now, that if, theoretically, heavy tanks were to come into play later and have a limit to the number out at the same time, the balance would skew greatly into axis favor as the game goes on, since 1 panther supporting a tiger is infinetly more potent than 2 t34/76s supporting an IS2, especially when you factor in the supporting AT.
What I am trying to get at is that the soviets are an army that has a grand total of 2 functioning options in terms of well-balanced army compositions for the lategame, and they are both stuck behind commanders. If you make soviet callins pointless, we will go into a period wherein the Soviets will be wrecked by every faction in the lategame, because their lategame options are literally nonexistent outside of doctrinal units. Soviets NEED a redesign, before their house of cards comes flopping down.
This isn't to say that I think that the callin meta is fine, I am merely stating that the current IS2/85 "callin meta" that we are stuck in is a result of multiple design flaws in the soviet army structure, and that many changes will be needed to be made before it can truly be fixed. You cannot look at one unit and say "OP" without looking at how that unit is affecting the rest of the faction as a whole. |
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I can't believe this thread right now. Arguments just kind of dissipated a page ago in favor of player attacks and strawmanning.
Anyways, in my opinion, the soviets are currently the strongest 2s and up faction because of their access to callins and decent elite infantry with doctrines. They are also arguably the best 1v1 faction if you consider the fact that they have no real weaknesses through the game. They are decent early, mid, and lategame with callins. In my opinion, they are the most boring faction, but the most powerful faction.
USF are very powerful in 1 vs. 1, due to their strong early game. However, for any game that lasts longer than 20 minutes, USF players are for the most part forced into airborne or infantry companys to have any lategame infantry firepower whatsoever. This strong early -> weak late leads to them scaling very badly in larger gamemodes (where the early/midgame passes quickly) and leaves them feeling like a support army more than anything.
OKW is currently the weakest faction in 1v1, but scales drastically in larger teamgames where it is possible to have their weaknesses covered by ostheer teammates. In 1v1, they get wrecked by soviet t1 openings, and are only on an equal footing vs. USF because of the kubelwagon. Their access to vet 5 gives them extreme power in the lategame, which makes them a but like the opposite of USF in terms of power scaling.
Ostheer is, in my opinion, the best designed faction, and the best nondoctrinal army. For ostheer, teching is linear, and they have access to all of their units by the time they are needed. T4 is a little too expensive, but there are few units in the ostheer arsenal that are currently underperforming (stugg and panzerwerfer). This huge choice of viable units allows them to pick and choose octrines that complement the individual players' style, and makes them have a lot more viable strategies. This translates into being a very good faction to use in all gamemodes. The only reason that they are not quite as good as soviets is due to soviets' ability to use callins to skip teching costs and give their early->midgame power a large boost in the endgame.
What does all this mean? It means that I believe that allies have the edge in all game modes, but only due to the callin meta. Without the callin meta to prop the soviets as a useful faction, the balance of power would be indisputably in the favor of the axis. |
Don't overcomplicate it for yourself, that's not how it works.
Educate me senpai. |
Only once?!  I have seen the Soviet's combat engineers doing that like a sniper and not only once!
I am fairly certain that that is mathematically impossible. 16 * 4 = 64.
Infantry models have 80 HP. |
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This is a problem with thrown explosives in general. I really feel like the threshold for pinning a unit should be lowered, so that a unit gets suppressed in the same amount of time, but gets pinned 1-2 bursts after the suppression kicks in. This would force players to be more intelligent and decisive in their tactics, and make mgs more potent as a suppressing weapon.
Alternatively we could cut the range of grenades in half when suppressed, making them not very viable as frontal engagement weapons.
Both of these would go a long way towards nerfing blob mentalities, though the half grenade range one is far more conservative. |
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