MG34 for Obers comes too late!

Trying to improve Falls is what lead us to them feeling a bit too cheesy/cheap right now, sometimes units might be underutilized, but it's no reason to do drastic changes that might turn out to be pure dynamite.

The 2cp change was enough imo, along with the 2fg42 upgrade (to reduce their shock value) and maaaaaybe the first strike bonus. Dps changes and 320 price were kinda overkill. I'm sure they will be toned down very soon anyway.

The 2cp change was enough imo, along with the 2fg42 upgrade (to reduce their shock value) and maaaaaybe the first strike bonus. Dps changes and 320 price were kinda overkill. I'm sure they will be toned down very soon anyway.

Remember when they made JLI a bit OP?
It took 2 months and a half, maybe it will happen sooner, but I doubt it.

nerf fucking OP falls first

Obers being that level of a powerful infantry and being stock unit kind of defeats your argument.
While guards or shocks are strong, you don't always have access to them regardless of what you do.
They also don't have 2 powerful offensive nades, ability to trap points, wolverines regenerative powers and suppression on demand through vet while having best weapon to snipe models right after sniper itself, lmg34.

While infantries you've mentioned are indeed strong, there is a considerable gap in capabilities compared to terminators obers are.

Im not 100% with OP in this topic, but tell me, if you were to choose between an earlier secret card, that the other player wont know until you play it and an ace that always come after the 10th round, which would you choose? One is predictable and arrives late, the other has the shock value and surprise element. At the moment the ace arrives you had more than enough time to prepare for its arrival, either minimizing loses or maximizing counter measures. Strategically speaking, having options is better.
Also, You just cant guess the enemy commander by seeing only a guards or shocks troops only. Even SU commanders that dont have infantry call ins, rely on tanks or indirect fire that obliterates obers anyway. Again, early game domination restricts a lot of the oponent freedom of will and possible strategies, an option SU has with earlier shock units.

Obers tend to compete with JLI and Falls, simply because of MP costs and bleed. The latter two options have a lot more of shock value and raw power too. Obers are great, but they are bland too.

I do not want obers buff but rather more flexibility to use them, as stationary elite troops they are. Maybe the way to go is simply nerfing volks and allow earlier obers.

I think removing the tech requirement would be fine, maybe raise the munitions cost +5 for the MG 34 and +10 for the IR stg44 to compensate just a bit.

IMO obers are the exact opposite of volks.
Volks are cost effective, obers not.
Volks power spike is early, obers is late.
Volks main attack range is mid to close, obers is far to mid.
Volks have versatility with simple skills, obers are stuffed with OP skills.
Volks survive better against AoE, obers against small arms fire.
volks have snares (maybe they shouldnt), obers dont.
volks tend to support themselves and other units, obers require support
and so on.

Its important to keep OKM with such design, its intentional. You either risk early or lategame.

I think removing the tech requirement would be fine, maybe raise the munitions cost +5 for the MG 34 and +10 for the IR stg44 to compensate just a bit.

That would be fine.

Im not 100% with OP in this topic, but tell me, if you were to choose between an earlier secret card, that the other player wont know until you play it and an ace that always come after the 10th round, which would you choose? One is predictable and arrives late, the other has the shock value and surprise element. At the moment the ace arrives you had more than enough time to prepare for its arrival, either minimizing loses or maximizing counter measures. Strategically speaking, having options is better.
Also, You just cant guess the enemy commander by seeing only a guards or shocks troops only. Even SU commanders that dont have infantry call ins, rely on tanks or indirect fire that obliterates obers anyway. Again, early game domination restricts a lot of the oponent freedom of will and possible strategies, an option SU has with earlier shock units.

Obers tend to compete with JLI and Falls, simply because of MP costs and bleed. The latter two options have a lot more of shock value and raw power too. Obers are great, but they are bland too.

I do not want obers buff but rather more flexibility to use them, as stationary elite troops they are. Maybe the way to go is simply nerfing volks and allow earlier obers.

It would make sense according to its historic identity and be more interesting. I am going to make this short, not going to go long winded and just get straight to the point. No long winded historic essay plz.


Mainly because Volks were "Militia" or the Peoples grenadiers meaning civilians irl and they were of course inferior to any other soldiers available within the german army.

The should be 5 man still as they are but nerfed. Remove the firenade for normal nade.
DPS reduced and price of STG package reduced to fit their identity more as a more urban unit.
RA increased and price decrease. Price should be either 240 or 250 instead.
Has snare still.
Will play more the role as support as it was identified.

Should perform similarly like Conscripts and somewhat similar to grens yet inferior to them.

Sturmpio were trained soldiers than Volks, Sturm should be improved differently the way they are now but modified.
Instead of them all having STG, they all get instead G43.
Remove stun nade for flame nade instead.
They will play the role of clearing as they were identified, not Volks.

It would significantly reduce their raw firepower close range for Sturmpio (which is more Volks identity urban combat) for more mid long range gameplay.

Obers should be this identity to display what they had left in reserves as their only form of their remaining experienced elite troops late war. Can partake roles in another level. That kind of unit.

Just an idea to fit their identity more.

Agreed on some points. Yet the suggested changes are quite radical.

Mainly because Volks were "Militia" or the Peoples grenadiers meaning civilians irl and they were of course inferior to any other soldiers available within the german army.
...
Should perform similarly like Conscripts and somewhat similar to grens yet inferior to them.

Good comparison, IMHO volks should be "german conscripts" but with some unique aspects.
To summarize, nerf volks combat effectivity and make them just enough cost efficient. STG upgrade should either be x5 nerfed Stgs (much worse DPS than current and also worse far range DPS) or simply x5 MP40s. The whole point of upgraded volks is that they become more shock troops instead of the poor mans fallshimmjaegers.
Flamenade is good but maybe nerf it a little more, to be a slightly better molotov. As a higly mobile troop the player should focus on give them MP40 ASAP. Another take is to just change flamenade for smoke ones and use raketens to clear buildings (more of that at the end). Remove sandbags and give them to spios.

Pair up with a 'decadent' design of MP cost, let them be 'cheap' (same cost as they are) to get, but expensive to reinforce (+10 MP per model) and let them dissapear in midgame unless you want to bleed badly. Smokes could enable them longer into midgame.
Finally If we can change volks to be the starting squad for OKW that could allow a sturmpio revamp.

Sturmpio were (more) trained soldiers than Volks, Sturm should be improved differently the way they are now but modified.
Instead of them all having STG, they all get instead G43.
Remove stun nade for flame nade instead.
They will play the role of clearing as they were identified, not Volks.

It would significantly reduce their raw firepower close range for Sturmpio (which is more Volks identity urban combat) for more mid long range gameplay.

Sturmpios with G43 is too good, IMO too much. Gren Kars98 should be enough, the squad new function is self preservation not combat potential. Function over firepower.
If sturmpios get demo charges instead of their stun grenades you could use them to clear buildings.

Damn even raketens could be used for such role, just give them a 30 Muni payed single HE rocket shot. They are in T0 already and you need them to stop Early LV abuse.

The thread is about Obers but i think working on the other 2 main infantries will make room for them.

Agreed on some points. Yet the suggested changes are quite radical.

Good comparison, IMHO volks should be "german conscripts" but with some unique aspects.
To summarize, nerf volks combat effectivity and make them just enough cost efficient. STG upgrade should either be x5 nerfed Stgs (much worse DPS than current and also worse far range DPS) or simply x5 MP40s. The whole point of upgraded volks is that they become more shock troops instead of the poor mans fallshimmjaegers.
Flamenade is good but maybe nerf it a little more, to be a slightly better molotov. As a higly mobile troop the player should focus on give them MP40 ASAP. Another take is to just change flamenade for smoke ones and use raketens to clear buildings (more of that at the end). Remove sandbags and give them to spios.

Pair up with a 'decadent' design of MP cost, let them be 'cheap' (same cost as they are) to get, but expensive to reinforce (+10 MP per model) and let them dissapear in midgame unless you want to bleed badly. Smokes could enable them longer into midgame.
Finally If we can change volks to be the starting squad for OKW that could allow a sturmpio revamp.

Sturmpios with G43 is too good, IMO too much. Gren Kars98 should be enough, the squad new function is self preservation not combat potential. Function over firepower.
If sturmpios get demo charges instead of their stun grenades you could use them to clear buildings.

Damn even raketens could be used for such role, just give them a 30 Muni payed single HE rocket shot. They are in T0 already and you need them to stop Early LV abuse.

The thread is about Obers but i think working on the other 2 main infantries will make room for them.

I like your further emphaisis on infantry core changes for OKW.

You further emphasis on Volks style and play is definitely a suitable ideas to fulfill their role, class and identification better. As well as to suit their current role in combat.

Starting units Volks, good idea. Should be that way. Increase slightly maybe starting MP since they have lost a good starting unit to in some way compensate.

Sturmpio to be more self preservation kind of unit. It is pretty lame currently the unit imo. It is still Volks build. Nothing changed.

Yes, for Sturmpio to have function over firepower is good.

I think sturms should have some accessible upgrade to 2 G43 to make them at least more self preserving as the game scales on.


Obers then should be made to arrive earlier with the MG34 upgrade available.

Mainly because Volks were "Militia" or the Peoples grenadiers meaning civilians irl and they were of course inferior to any other soldiers available within the german army.

Sorry for what is about to be a “long winded history essay”, but I feel inclined to correct this.

The Volkssturm was the German militia and consisted of the stereotypical young boys and old men. These are not in the game.

The term Volksgrenadier came about in late 1944 and continued to be used throughout the rest of the war as a term for the new German infantry units. These Volksgrenadier Battalions were a reorganization of Grenadier Battalions. Not all Grenadier Battalions got reorganized though.

There were numerous organizational changes from 1939-1945 that included renaming units from Infantrie Battalions, to Grenadier Battalions to Volksgrenadier Battalions. Most of the early changes were in name only, but the significant changes from Grenadier to Volksgrenadier Battalion included removing horses and adding bicycles where possible to recon units and reorganizing the composition of the infantry companies in the battalion. These new companies had one regular platoon and two “Machine Pistol” platoons. The Machine Pistol platoons each had one regular squad with an LMG42 but the other two squads had more men, no LMG and were supposed to all be armed with machine pistols. The MP40 or StG44 we’re both considered machine pistols for this purpose but not enough were available so the actual composition looked a lot like what we see in game with a mix of StG44s and Kar98ks in the hands of Volksgrenadiers.


Further reading is linked below. Cheers!

https://web.archive.org/web/20091228172755/http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/Infanterie/volks_grenadier_battalion%201944%20to%201945.htm

Sorry for what is about to be a “long winded history essay”, but I feel inclined to correct this.

The Volkssturm was the German militia and consisted of the stereotypical young boys and old men. These are not in the game.

The term Volksgrenadier came about in late 1944 and continued to be used throughout the rest of the war as a term for the new German infantry units. These Volksgrenadier Battalions were a reorganization of Grenadier Battalions. Not all Grenadier Battalions got reorganized though.

There were numerous organizational changes from 1939-1945 that included renaming units from Infantrie Battalions, to Grenadier Battalions to Volksgrenadier Battalions. Most of the early changes were in name only, but the significant changes from Grenadier to Volksgrenadier Battalion included removing horses and adding bicycles where possible to recon units and reorganizing the composition of the infantry companies in the battalion. These new companies had one regular platoon and two “Machine Pistol” platoons. The Machine Pistol platoons each had one regular squad with an LMG42 but the other two squads had more men, no LMG and were supposed to all be armed with machine pistols. The MP40 or StG44 we’re both considered machine pistols for this purpose but not enough were available so the actual composition looked a lot like what we see in game with a mix of StG44s and Kar98ks in the hands of Volksgrenadiers.


Further reading is linked below. Cheers!

https://web.archive.org/web/20091228172755/http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/Infanterie/volks_grenadier_battalion%201944%20to%201945.htm

Thank you for that. Losts of people confuse Volksgrenadiers with Volksstrums. The former were usually experienced and well equipped units, the latter were basically just a militia of random civilians.

Thank you for that. Losts of people confuse Volksgrenadiers with Volksstrums. The former were usually experienced and well equipped units, the latter were basically just a militia of random civilians.

Sorry, but tats not right. Volksgrenadiers were usually pretty bad armed and had significantly less training than the standard pgren or infantry divisions. It did not help that 16-to-60 year old men had to serve in this divisions too.