Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

USF is basically designed around moving units, should we nerf the Mg42 because it counters it?

That is not the point, as it is has units that need to be stationary too. The ENTIRE core of Ostheer is stationary. The pak howi counters it all without any kind of user input.

USF is basically designed around moving units, should we nerf the Mg42 because it counters it?

The MG42 does very little damage vs. infantry, it only really suppresses/pins (low MP drain)
The MG42 can only auto-fire in a small arc, and won't automatically turn to other directions
The MG42 has 45 range, roughly half of the PAK's 80 auto-fire, and 1/4th it's barrage range
The MG42 can be beaten by smoke, which is plentiful for USF units (mortar, REs, off-map)
The MG42 MUST be in combat range (i.e. its targets can fire back) to actually do anything

compared to...

The PAK does massive damage on hit (high MP drain)
The PAK can auto-fire 360degrees
The PAK has 80aa range, 160 barrage
The PAK will fire on anything within the players LoS (and range), since it's IDF
The PAK can sit behind shot blockers or other obstacles, well outside the combat range of its targets

On top of that, the PAK is firing almost exclusively on 4-man squads, with 30mp+ reinforce costs. Two direct hits, and that squad needs to fall back and pay 60+ MP to reinforce (+ heal time).


If the MG42 was able to spin 360 degrees, had doubled its current range, and could fire on units when LOS blocked by smoke.... then yes, we should nerf the MG42, because it would invalidate an entire faction's design (or more).

But they both require 3 men to decrew, but the Pack Howy has 5 men to soak damage whereas others have 4, which is a slight advantage.

Except as Loopdoop pointed out it's a disadvantage against explosives, so it's really not much of an advantage whatsoever

I think the pak Howy is too strong, but i also think you're just wrong about it's survivability. That needs to be buffed back to 6 man an the nerfhammer needs to be brought down on a different aspect of the unit

The MG42 does very little damage vs. infantry, it only really suppresses/pins (low MP drain)
The MG42 can only auto-fire in a small arc, and won't automatically turn to other directions
The MG42 has 45 range, roughly half of the PAK's 80 auto-fire, and 1/4th it's barrage range
The MG42 can be beaten by smoke, which is plentiful for USF units (mortar, REs, off-map)
The MG42 MUST be in combat range (i.e. its targets can fire back) to actually do anything

compared to...

The PAK does massive damage on hit (high MP drain)
The PAK can auto-fire 360degrees
The PAK has 80aa range, 160 barrage
The PAK will fire on anything within the players LoS (and range), since it's IDF
The PAK can sit behind shot blockers or other obstacles, well outside the combat range of its targets

On top of that, the PAK is firing almost exclusively on 4-man squads, with 30mp+ reinforce costs. Two direct hits, and that squad needs to fall back and pay 60+ MP to reinforce (+ heal time).


If the MG42 was able to spin 360 degrees, had doubled its current range, and could fire on units when LOS blocked by smoke.... then yes, we should nerf the MG42, because it would invalidate an entire faction's design (or more).

Mg42 can spin 360 degrees as much as pack howie can lmao. They both have to teardown and setup to fire and both have arcs.

Why we're even comparing mgs and indirect fire is beyond me though.

Mg42 can spin 360 degrees as much as pack howie can lmao. They both have to teardown and setup to fire and both have arcs.

Why we're even comparing mgs and indirect fire is beyond me though.

The PAK will do it automatically, though. The MG42 requires you to manually turn it.

As for comparing the MG42 to Pak, I was replying to another person who brought it up, and pointing out how the PAK invalidates OSt's design by its nature, whereas the MG42 doesn't do the same to USF.

Except as Loopdoop pointed out it's a disadvantage against explosives, so it's really not much of an advantage whatsoever

I think the pak Howy is too strong, but i also think you're just wrong about it's survivability. That needs to be buffed back to 6 man an the nerfhammer needs to be brought down on a different aspect of the unit

My only point about its survivability was that the original claim that it was "extremely fragile" is incorrect. Its not significantly more weak than other weapons.

as an average to below average player I think the pak howie is the ultimate noob litmus test. if the axis player is getting shredded by pak howie all game long, hes a noob. a good player knows how to deal with it quickly and effectively. you NEVER see high level players getting murdered by pak howies because theyre easy to counter.

But it is the other way around, a player that abuses pak howie is a noob that instead of using all the tools available in the faction, goes for a cheese double pak howie + .50 cals. Couple a jackson on the formula and voila! full retard noob USF formula. Not a single riflemen died in that game.

i think its just the ultimate pub stomping unit. protip to all the axis sadfaces in this thread; literally drive your fucking p4 next to it and shoot it. congrats, its decrewed.

Piece of advice there, from the self described below average player. In no time that P4 gets snared and torn to threads by a ATG. Then you loose the rest of the infantry to the so called Pak howie 'noob' stomper.

11/10 balance, would cheese again.

USF is basically designed around moving units, should we nerf the Mg42 because it counters it?

in which patch the MG42 got sniper like range and clears garrisons with ease? I must have missed that one.

That is not the point, as it is has units that need to be stationary too. The ENTIRE core of Ostheer is stationary. The pak howi counters it all without any kind of user input.

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this? Which units are these according to you when you say entire core?

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this? Which units are these according to you when you say entire core?

He probably means HMGs, ATGs and LMG infantry, because you know, no other faction has or uses these in every single game.

He probably means HMGs, ATGs and LMG infantry, because you know, no other faction has or uses these in every single game.

Are you contending that A) all other factions rely on static HMGs (that have a long tear-down like the MG42) and LMG inf as much as OST and B) all factions face a mortar with a strong AOE and range such as the Pack Howie?

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this? Which units are these according to you when you say entire core?

OST is basically designed around team weapons and static infantry, though:

MG42 - Core unit, Needs to be stationary to fire
LMG-Grens - Core unit, can only fire when stationary, has incredibly long 'ready aim' time
PAK ATG - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire
Mortar - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire, good vs. suppressed units (from stationary MG42)

In addition, all of those units are 4-model squads, and all the team weapons always have two of those models right beside the weapon.


The only non-doc OST infantry that can "stay mobile" are: Pioneers, PGrens and Snipers. You can't make a build out of those.

He probably means HMGs, ATGs and LMG infantry, because you know, no other faction has or uses these in every single game.

Ost relies far more heavily on MG play than any other faction; that's pretty clear from it being the only faction (other than UKF, which doesn't rely on it as heavily) with T0, non-optional-building MGs. Also, LMG grens have about the worst ready-aim time in the game ON TOP of being 4 man, expensive to reinforce squads. So while other factions do use LMG squads, they aren't nearly as 'risky'.

My only point about its survivability was that the original claim that it was "extremely fragile" is incorrect. Its not significantly more weak than other weapons.

It can't retreat and gets de-crewed when 3 men die. That makes it more fragile than most support weapons, including AT guns who can't retreat either, but at least get the shield. Leig is the only one in the same boat

It can't retreat and gets de-crewed when 3 men die. That makes it more fragile than most support weapons, including AT guns who can't retreat either, but at least get the shield. Leig is the only one in the same boat

Last time i checked the AT shield does next to nothing and as I said before 5 men decreeing @ 3 is better than 4 men decreeing @ 2, making it not "extremely fragile"

Last time i checked the AT shield does next to nothing

Check again, thats wrong

and as I said before 5 men decreeing @ 3 is better than 4 men decreeing @ 2, making it not "extremely fragile"

And as you were told thats not even true. The 3 men clumping on the weapon make the pak howy more vulnerable to AOE weapons

That means the Leig is only BARELY less survivable to small arms, and if you lose an indirect piece to small arms thats 100% your fault no matter what faction you're playing as. You should be moving before a squad walks up to it

What are you even arguing the point for? Are you against it getting the 6 man crew back? Which i have only suggested along with nerfs to its actual power

OST is basically designed around team weapons and static infantry, though:

MG42 - Core unit, Needs to be stationary to fire
LMG-Grens - Core unit, can only fire when stationary, has incredibly long 'ready aim' time
PAK ATG - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire
Mortar - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire, good vs. suppressed units (from stationary MG42)

In addition, all of those units are 4-model squads, and all the team weapons always have two of those models right beside the weapon.


The only non-doc OST infantry that can "stay mobile" are: Pioneers, PGrens and Snipers. You can't make a build out of those.

Pretty the same for UKF, and they doesn't event have a nondoc mobile mortar. Yet many people are crying about nefting infantry sections, someone event believe that bren can fire on the move and that isn't funny.

The only nondoc UKF infantry which can "theoretically stay mobile" is Sapper.

Pretty the same for UKF, and they doesn't event have a nondoc mobile mortar. Yet many people are crying about nefting infantry sections, someone event believe that bren can fire on the move and that isn't funny.

The only nondoc UKF infantry which can "theoretically stay mobile" is Sapper.

Since when can OST play along with USF?
How much of an offtopic is to talk about UKF in a Pak Howie OP thread?

Last time i checked the AT shield does next to nothing and as I said before 5 men decreeing @ 3 is better than 4 men decreeing @ 2, making it not "extremely fragile"

Except for the fact that 3 of them are clustered right around the gun and one direct hit will decrew the pack howie.

I like how you consistently keep ignoring this fact that I've already posted. But yeah atg shield does nothing, if you think it does it's all placebo.

Is it really that much of a deal a Pak Howie being decrewed by a single indirect hit?
The weapon its still in a safe zone, far away from any form of danger of being destroyed, captured or converted to fuel...

Pretty the same for UKF, and they doesn't event have a nondoc mobile mortar. Yet many people are crying about nefting infantry sections, someone event believe that bren can fire on the move and that isn't funny.

The only nondoc UKF infantry which can "theoretically stay mobile" is Sapper.

Last time i checked UKf relies on bolstered infantry sections..hmmm..