What if the ZiS and Sniper squad were swapped?

It's a simple change that would alter the options of the soviets to give them an actual rounded out tier building, as well as give them the ability to counter what the germans do once in a while.

Soviet tier 1 becomes a solid doctrine, as the eventual threat of german tier 2 will actually have an accessible counter that doesn't require fuel investment. In addition, a soviet player, knowing that the germans can only field infantry until they reach tier 2, can still opt for skipping their t1 and going for, well, weapons support. Maxims, mortars, and then snipers, supported by conscripts or even call in elite infantry, provides the soviet player with an army that is specialized in dealing with german infantry, but would lack a hard counter to any vehicle beyond conscript AT nades and doctrinal guards. A soviet player choosing to skip t1 and go t2 would either have to focus on holding the fuel advantage and/or rushing for their higher tiered units for AT.

German players facing soviet t2 would surely opt to rush for halftracks and scout cars to optimize the weakened AT options the soviet has chosen. For any german player ever conscript AT nades will always be a potential threat, as well as guard callins. (Which would incidentally inform the german player that the soviet will have no lategame tanks, due to commander choice.) German players facing t1 would remain able to faust any m3 scout cars, not to mention know their snipers would be safe from a countersnipe.

However, germans upon reaching tier 2, german scout cars and halftracks would be facing ZiS alongside m3s and penals. Although, with fausts and snipers, the destructive nature of the german SC upon m3s, as well as mortar access for extra help against clearing ZiS, the germans are still well equipped to counter this swapped soviet t1. The power of ZiS' barrage is notable, but can be expensive if spammed. Its use also opens a window for an upgraded halftrack or scoutcar to close the distance.

As it stands, the german army is effectively by default given access to a hard counter to soviet tanks with the PAK in their t2 before soviets have any hope of fielding a tank. They also kind of have a default hard counter to all light vehicles too considering panzerfausts, but that first requires the 25 fuel for teching and some muni. By swapping the ZiS and the sniper, soviet t1 becomes the option for sharing that same benefit. It would feature highly specialized units with critical weaknesses: Expensive but lethal penals with no AT and splodiness, mobile but super flimsy m3s, and ZiS with the ability to handle tanks, and except for its muni costing (and nerfed) barrage next to no ability to handle infantry. The german player can capitalize in any soviet measures at fielding anti-tank weaponry by focusing on a stronger infantry force, and vice versa. Both factions would have the hard AT counter option available and a solid infantry fighting force. This tier match up gives players a decent deterrent from rushing a shock vehicle, while rewarding flanking tactics. Penal battalions and conscripts against mg42s and grenadiers, mortars and without soviet sniper access, a potentially more belligerent german sniper. A dominating german player could even force a soviet players hand into building the other lower tier to get a sniper squad to counter snipe, and since the soviet would already have ZiS access, the extra fuel investment wouldn't be such a crippling blow.

Swapping the ZiS with the Sniper squad would alter soviet t2 to feature a well rounded anti-infantry fighting force that would be able to counter anything the german t1 can field: conscripts to grens, maxim to mg42, snipers to sniper, and whatever the mortars are called. Vetwise, conscripts scale poorly compared to grens, especially with their LMG42s, but with PPsH the field can be levelled. Maxims and mg42s suppress and pin infantry, mortars clear mgs, infantry clear mortars. And snipers shoot everyone: Classic rock, paper, scissors, sniper gameplay that's always well suited the CoH franchise. The tech race to effectively field (and deal with) vehicles and tanks becomes closer to anyone's game than it currently stands. German t2 can force out soviet guards or even clever gameplay with mines, maxims, and AT nades, and rushing a p4 might be met with a t34 or even SU-85.

Probably the biggest gameplay element lost from this switch would be the sniper in a scout car gameplay, which I do find enjoyable. However, it's a rather gimmicky tactic that requires such a high investment and sacrifices an incredible amount of capping power and map control that, at least in my experiences with CoH2, has proved unfeasible.

This also works for 2v2s, as this proposed swap would allow for a player to assume a more support role going t2 and forgoing conscripts to push with their t1 teammate, or utilizing the fact that they have the ability to counter german t1 to push their own side. I think the change would scale well into 3v3 and 4v4s as well.

Thoughts? I really would like to see the gameplay of CoH2 feel more balanced as soviets, and more challenging as germans. I have only on a few random occasions seen the percentage of players looking for games in favor of the soviets. It seems that this is evidence of a problem between the factions and one that should be remedied. This seems like it would be a reasonable enough solution that doesn't require changing any individual unit stats, bulletins, or commanders either.

Eh, I think Soviet T2 would be kind of eviscerated without the ZiS, and I think having the AT gun/fallback option in the cheap building is a bad idea - I can't see why you would not go T1-T3 every game.

My thoughts on that were snipers and p/gren swarms. This idea sort of evolved from thoughts on how underpowered and crippled penals and soviet tier 1 are as a whole.

The similar evisceration is already felt with going t1 as far as AT goes. By making soviet tier 2 a more direct counter towards germans players favoring infantry, it becomes an option to actually counter german tactics.

And without mg or mortar cover, the ZiS would much more vulnerable to the german army, and an expensive and dangerous decision to build if the german calls the bluff and gets another pgren.

If soviet t1 is weak its only because soviet t0 is so strong. Conscripts pretty much negate the point of making any other infantry unit short of 1 shock or 1 guard for utility. Why would you ever want to make penals when you have conscripts that do everything better, cheaper, faster?

Conscripts don't shoot better. Penals actually hit their targets sometimes. Their ability to kill panzer/grenadiers can be particularly useful later in the game. They also have good synergy with conscripts merge ability. I like me my satchels as well.

They lack oorah, molotovs, or AT nades but they are great at dealing damage. They also aren't commander specific.

But you have a point there. Most strategies I know of build tier 1 simply because its 10 fuel less than t2, bringing t3 that much sooner. Rarely is it for any t1 unit.

Maybe its time to bite the bullet, and simply ladder tier cost/buildtime to force a linear progression that is roughly equal to Ost.

This whole concept of t2 and 3 being parallel for Sov, hasnt worked out very well.

I think the original concept may have been that Sov could potentially skip even t1, by compensating with Commander call-in infantry, or build t1 for Penal/Cons interplay in a more standard non-Commander reliant build. That too, hasnt worked very well.

I agree that ATGs should be more or less an automatic buildnoption for both factions, I just dont think OPs solution is the way to do it.

I think having Maxim and sniper (with cons) combo would be OP, if you add mortar and doctrinal units (rifle guards) it would spill into T2 being ineffective for Germans as well.
Mostly due to way maxim and soviet sniper differ from German counterpart units

Resulting in tier 3 and 4 being also ineffective due to lack of fuel (loss of map control during T1-T2)

I can see where you are coming from, however having ZiS-3 in tier 1 seems a bit like an overkill. I would suggest swapping Sniper for the M-42 45mm AT Gun instead.

That way you would have a light AT option in case you go for tier 1 to fight German light vehicles but without being already set up against the medium armor as well. That would mean you could actually use Soviet tier 1 without the necessity to go for Guards to avoid FHT rape.

At the same time the usability of German Sniper would be much better and it would be fine that it gets countered by Soviet Sniper as it does right now since Soviet Sniper would be a doctrinal unit. Plus Urban Defense sounds like a nice home for the Sniper, Enemy at the Gates anyone?

If soviet t1 is weak its only because soviet t0 is so strong. Conscripts pretty much negate the point of making any other infantry unit short of 1 shock or 1 guard for utility. Why would you ever want to make penals when you have conscripts that do everything better, cheaper, faster?

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