M36 Jackson

So I've been comparing the three Allied tank destroyers.

The Firefly's got the lowest damage output thanks to its awful reload, but good burst damage. It's also got a medium tank's armour and Tulips if you're willing to feed its ravenous hunger for munitions. It has a turret but it turns slowwwwwwwwwwwwly...

The SU-85 is a casemate, which means it's a slow lumbering beast in desperate need of protection. It's got a better damage output than the Firefly and can self spot. It's also got better penetration than the Firefly and it's cheaper.

Between these two I can see the tradeoff. The SU-85 is cheaper and puts out more damage faster, but the Firefly is more independent.

Then we come to the Jackson.
It's got the price and damage output of the SU-85, the best penetration before you bring in its HVAP ability, good turret rotation and 0.75 moving accuracy. Put all this together and it can roll up to an enemy medium Panther-style and splatter it. The other two can't: the SU-85 gets flanked and the Firefly'll lose because of how long it takes to reload.

I'm fairly sure it used to only have 480 health (three hit kill like a light vehicle), but went up to 640 in DBP.

There's no real contest here: the Jackson is the best of the three in almost every department. It just seems like a better Firefly for less.

What gives? Does it need toning down? Do the other TDs need toning up? Or is it like this to compensate for some factional weakness I'm missing?

Look at the other AT sources from USF, they got a rubber projectile AT gun that is awesome vs light tanks but trash vs any tank on okw p4 level or higher.... and they have poop bazookas which have a similar behavior like their AT gun. There is a reason why USF has the best standalone TD from the allies.


And please show me how a Jackson wins a 1v1 vs a Panther. When Jacksons were still 480HP, teamgames were pretty annoying on many maps cuz you couldnt stop the panther spam.

Look at the other AT sources from USF, they got a rubber projectile AT gun that is awesome vs light tanks but trash vs any tank on okw p4 level or higher.... and they have poop bazookas which have a similar behavior like their AT gun. There is a reason why USF has the best standalone TD from the allies.


And please show me how a Jackson wins a 1v1 vs a Panther. When Jacksons were still 480HP, teamgames were pretty annoying on many maps cuz you couldnt stop the panther spam.

Doesn't the USF AT gun have an ability on it that takes its penetration from worst to one of the best? Sure, it drains munitions where the other four don't, but it's hardly obsolete.

Are bazookas really worse than PTRS rifles and PIATs?

Jackson vs Panther's always been a fair fight in my experience. The Jackson has range, the Panther can take an extra two hits. I can see how a 480 HP Jackson'd just get stomped, but the 640 does fine.

Would you say the Firefly is too expensive rather than the Jackson too cheap?

they got a rubber projectile AT gun that is awesome vs light tanks but trash vs any tank on okw p4 level or higher....

They actually have the best AT gun in the game IF you spend the muni for HVAP.

But for AT vehicles, the US have the fewest options. Stuart is the next best thing (not counting medium tanks for anyone). Ost has stug,panther, OKW has puma,jp4,panther, Brits have AEC, Firefly, Comet, Sovs have su76, su85

That doesnt mean the Jackson shouldnt be tweaked, but I think the reasoning for it being better than Firefly and su85 is the surrounding vehicle roster

That doesnt mean the Jackson shouldnt be tweaked, but I think the reasoning for it being better than Firefly and su85 is the surrounding vehicle roster

I can see why its stats are the way they are, but it seems way more cost efficient than its Soviet and UKF counterparts. It makes the SU-85 and Firefly look kinda shit.

I can see why its stats are the way they are, but it seems way more cost efficient than its Soviet and UKF counterparts. It makes the SU-85 and Firefly look kinda shit.

I think its definitely better than the SU85, whos only real trick over the Jackson is self-spotting, which has an obvious drawback. And its only 10 fuel cheaper yet needs to be babysitted way more than the m36 so you might be right on that one.

As for the firefly, idk. It does have more damage and the tulips are still a great trick. Its definitely less forgiving micro-wise due to its mobility and turret rotation like you said, but I think its ceiling is still higher.

The fact that the Jackson is 140 fuel is an absolute travesty. Should be a minimum of 150 and ideally at 160-170.

And regarding the AT gun needing munitions, I think it’s time to remove that for good and just buff its pen to 6pounder levels. Jackson can already pen super heavies with ease.

Yeah jacksons are nuts, but USF hasn't received a sizable nerf in what? 2 years? when rifles lost their 1919s and insane RA bonuses. Don't hold your breath.

It's all just compensation cause "rifle sucks" (no source) HE sherman bad tank and scott is just useless too. BARs expensive and StG better, pakhowie no range, AT gun bounces, 50 cal awful. I mean the USF lineup is just crying in a corner.

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I think its definitely better than the SU85, whos only real trick over the Jackson is self-spotting, which has an obvious drawback. And its only 10 fuel cheaper yet needs to be babysitted way more than the m36 so you might be right on that one.

As for the firefly, idk. It does have more damage and the tulips are still a great trick. Its definitely less forgiving micro-wise due to its mobility and turret rotation like you said, but I think its ceiling is still higher.

The Firefly has +40 damage per shot, but +3 seconds reload time.

It's got the lowest damage output over time of all three TDs.

They actually have the best AT gun in the game IF you spend the muni for HVAP.

well thats the point. Not only that USF is arguably the most munitions-reliant faction in the game but what you do if the tank just moves away and comes back in 30 sec?

I think the Jackson range should go down to 50 to balance its great moving accruacy. It is also cheaper than Panther and takes up 2 pop less, and when you consider self repairs vs another 5 pop pio squad...it all adds up.

Stock Jackson with AP already fuck Axis tanks bad.
Once Vet, it fires like crazy fast and ignores vet panther armor even without AP rounds. In normal enagagements, it probably is able to make 3 shots against Panther 1, so the 960 panther HP does not justify it being more costly than Jackson...

well thats the point. Not only that USF is arguably the most munitions-reliant faction in the game but what you do if the tank just moves away and comes back in 30 sec?

It fires really really fast, not like the case of mg42 or Pak AP rounds...

They actually have the best AT gun in the game IF you spend the muni for HVAP.

But for AT vehicles, the US have the fewest options. Stuart is the next best thing (not counting medium tanks for anyone). Ost has stug,panther, OKW has puma,jp4,panther, Brits have AEC, Firefly, Comet, Sovs have su76, su85

That doesnt mean the Jackson shouldnt be tweaked, but I think the reasoning for it being better than Firefly and su85 is the surrounding vehicle roster

Shermans are pretty good no?
When Axis rear armor are now 90-117, bunch of Sherman variations are your AT vehicles.

The Firefly has +40 damage per shot, but +3 seconds reload time.

It's got the lowest damage output over time of all three TDs.

Wow and apparently lower max range penetration too? Is that right? I thought the firefly had more but coh2db says Jackson is 220, Firefly 210.

I was gonna say the firefly is more consistent but not if that's the case. Seems like tulips are its only advantage

Shermans are pretty good no?
When Axis rear armor are now 90-117, bunch of Sherman variations are your AT vehicles.

Yea nothing wrong with shermans, but I left them off the list because everyone has medium tanks

Shermans are pretty good no?
When Axis rear armor are now 90-117, bunch of Sherman variations are your AT vehicles.

If your opponent does absolutely nothing to protect the rear of their vehicles then sure, I guess?

You've got to assume a decent level of skill when discussing balance.

Wow and apparently lower max range penetration too? Is that right? I thought the firefly had more but coh2db says Jackson is 220, Firefly 210.

I was gonna say the firefly is more consistent but not if that's the case. Seems like tulips are its only advantage

Yep.

If the Jackson isn't overpowered, then the Firefly has awful cost efficiency.

invised offtopic post

invised offtopic post

calm dawn pls
usf need non doc wolverine then u can rework jackson because now people cry that jackson counter medium and heavy armor.

The Jackson used to have low hp for high speed, and high moving acc, but they buffed its HP so it can slug it out with axis heavies, but they didn't touch anything else. Lower its moving acc to 0.5 like every other tank in the game and reduce its speed by a small margin.

Once Vet, it fires like crazy fast.

5.054 seconds reload on vet 3 is crazy fast?

The Jackson has some issues, but ROF isn't one of them.