Mirror Match

@Ohmwrecker: Not sure who you're talking about. Saw plenty of people complain about it. Perhaps not on the alpha forums because they couldn't access it But even there there was heated debate on the subject.

As for the "It's just a game" argument. That's not one at all. I could argue that CoH ought to be a FPS with RPG elements and then just go "It's just a game".

Yes it's a game. But that doesn't mean that anything can be done with it. And if you're going to pretty much just ruin the WW2 aestethic of it. You might as well not bother with WW2 at all. You might as well not bother with the authenticity.

One of the reasons i really like CoH is for the simple fact that there are no mirror matches. It is fun.

@Naereas: Regarding the MG/Rifleflank. That's not right. If anything learning how to setup the MG would also teach you how to flank one because mastering the MG would not just be about the strengths of the MG but also the weaknesses.

That is why one of the prime suggestions for a new player struggling with one army is to play the other one, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of that one to then apply to their own army

I was watching both, and I was not seeing a majority that was against mirrors. I was seeing a vocal bunch that more often than not consisted of players who hadn't tried the alpha yet. They were pretty consistently countered equally by others, like myself.

Referring to CoH 2 as a game, versus a simulation, is a valid point in my opinion. Multiplayer makes use of units that hardly saw enough production to really put them on the frontline in significant numbers. Soldiers don't go and fire at each other while standing or kneeling for 15-20 seconds without killing a whole squad. V2 rockets weren't wasted on clusters of infantry. I never heard of propaganda leaflets that sent hardened soldiers running back to base. etc. etc.

At the end of the day CoH 2 is a RTS game, in development by a studio that has a proven track record, with a publisher that retains 100% rights to the intellectual property. So yes, they can do what they want with the franchise, even if that means making a FPS, RPG, or even a slingshot style Company of Heroes: Angry Wehrms for the iPad. Relic has the right to design CoH 2 in whatever way they (and now Sega) see fit, they have no obligation whatsoever to fans.

I don't feel that mirrors ruin the WWII feel at all. All of the units shown are still WWII units. The environments shown are still set in the WWII era. Giant robots don't appear out of the ground during play, it's extremely authentic, and lends to a better multiplayer experience.

Like many ppl already elaborated in detail: I don't like the idea of mirror matches in automatch/ranked since one of the core mechanics of coh is asymmetry of units and I don't get the debate on balancing since when it comes to wehr vs. red army mirror matches would hardly contribute anything balance wise.

No to MM in ranked, yes to MM in custom games.

I was watching both, and I was not seeing a majority that was against mirrors. I was seeing a vocal bunch that more often than not consisted of players who hadn't tried the alpha yet. They were pretty consistently countered equally by others, like myself.

Really ? Fascinating, so you don't call people who appear from lurking or just sign up for the forum just to point out that they are against Mirror matches itself for a majority, but merely a vocal bunch ? Generally the Pro-mirror match people seemed in the minority overall. Nor did they soundly counter any arguments. Largely it came down to what you then proceed to do in your current post.

Referring to CoH 2 as a game, versus a simulation, is a valid point in my opinion. Multiplayer makes use of units that hardly saw enough production to really put them on the frontline in significant numbers. Soldiers don't go and fire at each other while standing or kneeling for 15-20 seconds without killing a whole squad. V2 rockets weren't wasted on clusters of infantry. I never heard of propaganda leaflets that sent hardened soldiers running back to base. etc. etc.

What you're doing, and what pretty much all the others for Mirror match did was go for the jugular of the straw man. You're not dealing with the actual argument. You're setting up a nice similar looking one, that is that everyone wants full realism and essentially a simulation. Thing is. Pretty much no one does, those that do tend to anyways play the Blitzkrieg mod or go "Hey ! Play Men of War ! Please !! We're so lonely" (alright that last bit might just be my imagination )

What people want, and what is so continually missed that it's either a full deception play or a sheer inability to comprehend the concept. Is Authenticity. The less talked about brother of Realism. The bit where you take what WORKS and adds it to a game. Where you try to adhere to the spirit of what you're trying to emulate instead of trying to simulate.

Which means a generally accurate armour and vehicle pool, no crazy prototypes, in fact CoH tended to go one step further and even have an alright grip on unit organisation. But again, it does not go for Realism. Mirror matches would be against that spirit of authenticity. Since the spirit of the war was rather Axis vs Soviets or Allies. Not axis vs axis or allies vs Allies. And to you it might not matter. But to the vast player base. It does. Which would in essence make you the vocal bunch.

But that is never touched upon, rather that everyone seems to be interested in having a full on simulation instead of an Authentic WW2 RTS.

At the end of the day CoH 2 is a RTS game, in development by a studio that has a proven track record, with a publisher that retains 100% rights to the intellectual property. So yes, they can do what they want with the franchise, even if that means making a FPS, RPG, or even a slingshot style Company of Heroes: Angry Wehrms for the iPad. Relic has the right to design CoH 2 in whatever way they (and now Sega) see fit, they have no obligation whatsoever to fans.

Yes, including NOT adding in mirror matches. They've set themselves towards authenticity. Mirror matches do not fit in there.

Sure they have no obligation towards the fans, but then the fans have no obligation to buy the game. But again, this magical argument goes both ways. Relic has no obligation to add in mirror matches either. They have no obligation to just screw over the fans. Just like the "it's just a game. It's just a game man" It's a pretty pointless argument.

I don't feel that mirrors ruin the WWII feel at all. All of the units shown are still WWII units. The environments shown are still set in the WWII era. Giant robots don't appear out of the ground during play, it's extremely authentic, and lends to a better multiplayer experience.

Well if giant robots is what it takes for you to actually take a step back. Well then you might not be so heavily engaged in the whole authenticity department, that is fair enough. But then do be so kind as to respect those that do. Because Mirror matches would be like adding in a giant robot to us. If that somehow gets the point across.

Because Mirror matches would be like adding in a giant robot to us. If that somehow gets the point across.

I like this analogy. So true. Thanks Dane!

I like this analogy. So true. Thanks Dane!

I Concur

A giant robot would kick ass. CoH 2 would sell way more copies if instead of "hey look World War II again" it also had a giant fucking robot. That would own.

What people want, and what is so continually missed that it's either a full deception play or a sheer inability to comprehend the concept. Is Authenticity. The less talked about brother of Realism. The bit where you take what WORKS and adds it to a game. Where you try to adhere to the spirit of what you're trying to emulate instead of trying to simulate.

You've got your authenticity in the single player portion. Multiplayer is a different beast. Relic wanted mirror match in the original, I remember talking with Relic devs and Buggo at the time about it, but they took it out due to pressure. I always viewed that as a mistake, and I can tell you that I knew (and still know) plenty of people that found CoH 1 multiplayer unappealing because there was so little variance in matchups.

Which means a generally accurate armour and vehicle pool, no crazy prototypes, in fact CoH tended to go one step further and even have an alright grip on unit organisation. But again, it does not go for Realism. Mirror matches would be against that spirit of authenticity. Since the spirit of the war was rather Axis vs Soviets or Allies. Not axis vs axis or allies vs Allies. And to you it might not matter. But to the vast player base. It does. Which would in essence make you the vocal bunch.

Why do you feel you have the authority to speak for the "vast player base" on this? First, the multiplayer community is miniscule compared to the consumers who buy games like CoH for single player alone. Second, those who usually do take the time to complain are typically the dissatisfied minority, whereas happy users tend to stay quiet.

Also, I'd like to point you to this poll, which was linked on the forum back in December and had 577 participants-

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=50d643f7e4b091229a56c17c

The majority (39%) voted strictly Yes to mirrors, with an additional 25% that voted Yes, but with an option to disable. Only 35% voted "No".

Sure they have no obligation towards the fans, but then the fans have no obligation to buy the game. But again, this magical argument goes both ways. Relic has no obligation to add in mirror matches either. They have no obligation to just screw over the fans. Just like the "it's just a game. It's just a game man" It's a pretty pointless argument.

Relic has now come back to mirrors for the second time, indicating that this is something that they want. Mirrors have always been a part of RTS, and not allowing for them only restricts players. I experienced mirrors in CoH 1, and I was satisfied with them. Again, I think it was a mistake for Relic to react to criticism at that time. This time I'm hoping Relic sticks to their guns, because in the end mirrors will make for a better multiplayer real-time strategy game (again, game). I honestly wouldn't care if Relic introduced the Japanese into the Germany / Russian conflict in a future content release, what I care about is multiplayer diversity.

You've got your authenticity in the single player portion. Multiplayer is a different beast. Relic wanted mirror match in the original, I remember talking with Relic devs and Buggo at the time about it, but they took it out due to pressure. I always viewed that as a mistake, and I can tell you that I knew (and still know) plenty of people that found CoH 1 multiplayer unappealing because there was so little variance in matchups.

Really ? Because i read elsewhere that they intended not to have mirror matches in from the beginning but that there was some complaining on the matter. And i certainly view that as a great move.

As for your singleplayer/multiplayer dichotomy. No, authenticity should run through both. If one becoems disjointed from the main spirit, then it becomes rotten, pointless. Like a tacked on Multiplayer mode for an other Singleplayer focused game, like Bioshock or Spec ops the line.

For multiplayer to truly work, it should work in tandem with the singleplayer. And again, part of this core is Authenticity, it is a hallmark and something that makes CoH stand out. Fair if you disagree. But mirror matches are the intruder here. So do understand if i am not kindly inclined to the idea of their inclusion.

Why do you feel you have the authority to speak for the "vast player base" on this? First, the multiplayer community is miniscule compared to the consumers who buy games like CoH for single player alone. Second, those who usually do take the time to complain are typically the dissatisfied minority, whereas happy users tend to stay quiet.

Ermm.. Your argument ? I do not claim to be an authority, but i do look around and notice things. Like again, an utter lack of appearance in mods of mirror matches...

As far as i can see you're agreeing with me ? IE, for the larger part. There have been no great complains about the lack of mirror matches for the last 6 years. There has been one mod, largely forgotten. Many mods have come, included a lot of things, but never mirror matches.. So you ARE saying that mirror matches is only wanted by a minor minority ?

As for the poll you're referring to. That was discounted since it is pretty easy to manipulate. Hell i got the option just now to vote for it a second time. Not hard to imagine a zealous yes voter...

Relic has now come back to mirrors for the second time, indicating that this is something that they want. Mirrors have always been a part of RTS, and not allowing for them only restricts players. I experienced mirrors in CoH 1, and I was satisfied with them. Again, I think it was a mistake for Relic to react to criticism at that time. This time I'm hoping Relic sticks to their guns, because in the end mirrors will make for a better multiplayer real-time strategy game (again, game). I honestly wouldn't care if Relic introduced the Japanese into the Germany / Russian conflict in a future content release, what I care about is multiplayer diversity.

I am not sure where the "always been a part of RTS" argument is going. Yes, it has been a part of many RTS games. And a lot of them have also failed. And a lot of them are not played anymore really. Whereas CoH, after 6 years, no mirror matches, can still muster 10k online. Do tell me, how many RTS games besides Starcraft can muster that ?

And just because you were satisfied does not mean it is all of a sudden okay for everyone else.. Since you have stated that for your alarms to go off. They'd have to add in Giant Robots. Pardons for that one. But it does show you are perhaps not the most discerning judge on the field.

And i hope Relic sticks to their INITIAL guns which was. No mirror matches. They did decide that initially and i hope they go for that.

Nor do i think it will make for a better Multiplayer RTS, quite the contrary for reasons mentioned previously. It will add nothing, only detract and remove something that truly makes CoH shine in a sea generic replicas.

In starcraft, mirror matches are the most boring matches by far,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH please, here we have the perfect example of the typical ****** who doesn't know shit about starcraft and still talks out of his ass, like the ones saying sc2 is 'spammin apm' loLo0Lol

TvT is widely considered THE BEST match-up out of all the 6 match-ups, ant it is a mirror match-up. it is considered the most dynamic and flexible, and skill based(positioning) i could go very deep into why it is the best matchup, but that's no the point here

with that out of the way, i am 100% in favor of mirror matches, and i hope it gets implemented at release

I am not sure where the "always been a part of RTS" argument is going. Yes, it has been a part of many RTS games. And a lot of them have also failed. And a lot of them are not played anymore really. Whereas CoH, after 6 years, no mirror matches, can still muster 10k online. Do tell me, how many RTS games besides Starcraft can muster that ?

Warcraft 3.

One thing i'd like to say: people comparing coh to starcraft, you are doing it wrong, they are ''complete'' opposites on their genre(RTS). coh and wc3 share a lot more similarities.

Ugh, I hated mirrors in warcraft 3.

I thought we discussed enough about this..

Lovely how much discussion is brought into this w/o even trying out the mirrors. Most people will have a chance to try it out in the closed beta. Some of the people that tried it say its not such a big deal. Reserve your judgments until you have 100+ automatch games in mirrors. I for one do not think they are boring, and do not care about the authenticity part (comparing mirrors to a robot is huge mistake imo)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH please, here we have the perfect example of the typical ****** who doesn't know shit about starcraft and still talks out of his ass, like the ones saying sc2 is 'spammin apm' loLo0Lol

TvT is widely considered THE BEST match-up out of all the 6 match-ups, ant it is a mirror match-up. it is considered the most dynamic and flexible, and skill based(positioning) i could go very deep into why it is the best matchup, but that's no the point here

with that out of the way, i am 100% in favor of mirror matches, and i hope it gets implemented at release




Warcraft 3.

One thing i'd like to say: people comparing coh to starcraft, you are doing it wrong, they are ''complete'' opposites on their genre(RTS). coh and wc3 share a lot more similarities.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH please, here we have the perfect example of the typical ****** who doesn't know shit about coh and still talks out of his ass, like the ones saying coh is 'spammin op units' loLo0Lol

Guys, are we reaching that point where common sense should make you stop talking about this? I know you can keep the discussion going without having to exagerate. So please stay calm. Thank you

I for one do not think they are boring, and do not care about the authenticity part (comparing mirrors to a robot is huge mistake imo)

Why? I think it's very close to the same, authenticity wise.

Second question: What do you do about the unit chatter. What do your men say when they are under fire from other Germans or other Soviets? Bet you didn't think about that, huh, hotshot?

"Give me a rifle, one bullet, and point me at Washington!"

Whoo. That would've been *awesome* in CoH. Just completely believable and thrilling.

In other words, most other RTSs lack the features that made no mirrors interesting in CoH. CoH gained unique thematic advantages by forcing the engagement to be Axis vs Allies.

"Give me a rifle, one bullet, and point me at Washington!"

bad example, since he says "point me at the bad guys.", which would work either way... but apart from that, it's true for the most part... but, in coh2 we might not get unit chatter as awesome as coh did have.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH please, here we have the perfect example of the typical ****** who doesn't know shit about coh and still talks out of his ass, like the ones saying coh is 'spammin op units' loLo0Lol

yea, i must know NOTHING about coh having played it for 5 years ~8h a day

btw i dont understend your post, you can't even write a proper response, how sad

bad example, since he says "point me at the bad guys.", which would work either way... but apart from that, it's true for the most part... but, in coh2 we might not get unit chatter as awesome as coh did have.

No, he actually does say "Give me a rifle, a bullet, and point me at Berlin!" or something like that.

CoH2 will absolutely never equal CoH if it has mirror matches. It'll just be DoW:WW2.

And I might very well buy and play DoW:WW2, but it still won't ever live up to the sheer mythology and greatness of CoH.

yea, i must know NOTHING about coh having played it for 5 years ~8h a day

which makes it all the sadder.

btw i dont understend your post, you can't even write a proper response, how sad

dito ;-)

Guys, I just want to point out that insults neither supports your points, nor do they make you cool or sexually attractive.

Just throwing that out there.