Mirror Match

Because when two players are playing on a specular map with the same faction and in the same conditions you could ideally realize who is the best between them

You could be the best player in mixed match and the worse in mirror and the opponent the opposite it still wouldn't tell who is the best. Merely who is the best in mirror match. Even then the sample must be much higher than 1 game to draw such conclusion. And it might not even be the fact it's a mirror but just how playstyle of each works against the other.

Plus COH2 won't have symmetrical maps so hypothetical mirror match will be totally fucked and lose any kind of sense because map balance, you heard it here first.

I suppose we can't discuss specifics here since Alpha is under NDA. It's very difficult to judge if there should be mirror matches based on an Alpha build of the game. Obviously, there are other points that are not dependent upon how the game is built, but there are some game-specific features that do lend themselves one way or the other. I'd suggest broad discussion of mirror matches wait until we are no longer under NDA, or remain confined to the testing forums.

I'd say just put checkboxes to allow/disallow mirror matches in automatch & basic matches.

In automatch, it could be a little box that you tick if you want to allow the automatcher to put you up against the same faction you're playing as. If you don't want mirror matches, you just leave it unchecked.

In basic, the host could have a similar checkbox to allow/disallow players to pick factions individually instead of it being team-based. Then add a filter so players looking for non-mirror match games can skip them as they please.

Simple as that in my eyes. I personally like the diversity of fighting different factions, but I can understand competitive players wanting to be allowed to pick whatever faction they want, and for casual players to just fuck around with different faction matchups.

I'd say just put checkboxes to allow/disallow mirror matches in automatch & basic matches.

In automatch, it could be a little box that you tick if you want to allow the automatcher to put you up against the same faction you're playing as. If you don't want mirror matches, you just leave it unchecked.

In basic, the host could have a similar checkbox to allow/disallow players to pick factions individually instead of it being team-based. Then add a filter so players looking for non-mirror match games can skip them as they please.

Simple as that in my eyes. I personally like the diversity of fighting different factions, but I can understand competitive players wanting to be allowed to pick whatever faction they want, and for casual players to just fuck around with different faction matchups.

Problem with doing this in automatchups or "ranked" is that your already splitting the player pool in half.

Would boring not be the biggest argument there can ever be for esports? No one will watch if it's boring

"It's boring" isn't an argument at all. I could just as easily say "it's entertaining" with nothing to back it up. The alpha has been out 5 minutes and people are already making such definitive, sweeping statements, which is just absurd. That said, Budwise has brought up a very good point in that we could potentially see Tournaments ruined by a patch with awful inter-faction balance leading to a single faction dominating every game in every round.

Overall I just think people need to take a step back, relax and look at it objectively. None of this "it's boring" and "it's unrealistic" nonsense will get anyone anywhere.

Just to add: to the people saying "add it in basic, but not automatch" as if that's a good compromise, I think you're missing the point entirely. Mirror matches shouldn't be considered because they'd make for some frivolous doss around games, but because it would help strengthen the competitive scene. If they're going to be added in any form, they should be added in automatch. Otherwise why bother at all?

Plus COH2 won't have symmetrical maps so hypothetical mirror match will be totally fucked and lose any kind of sense because map balance, you heard it here first.

Actually I think they said somewhere that they were going to make some more symetrical maps for competitive play.

A lot of CoH's charm came from the forced asymmetries and still the more symmetrical games (rax vs Volksspam or standard wehr t1 against wsc starts) were usually a lot less fun to play. I guess it's worth testing mirror matches in the alpha and beta, but the focus should be on wehr vs soviets. I can only see mirrormatches working in games that put much more focus on economy and teching.

Mirror matches shouldn't be considered because they'd make for some frivolous doss around games, but because it would help strengthen the competitive scene. If they're going to be added in any form, they should be added in automatch. Otherwise why bother at all?

How would it strengthen the competitive scene? You're just stating your opinion without any evidence to back it up. It's also possible that it will drive players away from automatch if implemented.

I get that some of the top players would love it but there are also some skeptics. Not all pros seem to be strongly in favour.

I'd be happy if they added it in basic but not in automatch.

How would it strengthen the competitive scene?

It would completely eliminate the archaic "BO3s and deciding factions by VP count" system that plagued CoH tournaments. Under that system matches could be incredibly unbalanced if you were on a map that's particularly good for one faction, yet awful for another. Getting rid of that would be a huge push in the right direction for the tournament/e-sports scene.

You guys are trying to make CoH a generic RTS, with heroes and RPG features and pay to win features, and perks to unlock, and mirror matches in WW2, and a ugly UI with lots of confusing information and all that crap of any kid's RTS those days, too bad for us old players, fans of that awesome and simple original.

You guys are trying to make CoH a generic RTS, with heroes and RPG features and pay to win features, and perks to unlock, and mirror matches in WW2, and a ugly UI with lots of confusing information and all that crap of any kid's RTS those days, too bad for us old players, fans of that awesome and simple original.

I've played since vCoH retail and 100% oppose hero units and "RPG elements," if by that you mean CoHO-like features and play/pay-to-win, for the exact same reason that I'm for mirror matches.

Please keep that kind of baseless, sensationalist drivel on the official CoH forums where it belongs.

Please keep that kind of baseless, sensationalist drivel on the official CoH forums where it belongs.

lol, let me with my outflow moment, ok.

It would completely eliminate the archaic "BO3s and deciding factions by VP count" system that plagued CoH tournaments. Under that system matches could be incredibly unbalanced if you were on a map that's particularly good for one faction, yet awful for another. Getting rid of that would be a huge push in the right direction for the tournament/e-sports scene.

I see your point but I think that's more due to a lack of decent, balanced maps.

Wouldn't all the random stuff in CoH reduce mass appeal for e-sports anyway? It isn't just due to the lack of mirror matches that CoH isn't more popular, is it?

Btw, has anyone thought about the luck factor in the mirror matches? Luck being the factor it is (at least in CoH, honestly not really sure about CoH 2), I could see lucky strikes being too dominant in determining the winner, especially in the early game.

Btw, has anyone thought about the luck factor in the mirror matches? Luck being the factor it is (at least in CoH, honestly not really sure about CoH 2), I could see lucky strikes being too dominant in determining the winner, especially in the early game.

Not really, I think better micro and teching with better use of abilities will win games. Mirror matches are less likely to be determined by stuff like faction imbalances and luck has the same effect on mirror matches as a non-mirror match game.

EDIT: Also it actually might be more boring having only 1 matchup in the game, USSR vs Ostheer. We'll be seeing the same matchup over and over again in tournaments because of that. This is what happened in SNF S3, we all know that US vs Wehr is the best matchup but we enjoyed some variety in game play thanks to the OF factions, and tournaments would be less interesting without mirror matches imo.

It would completely eliminate the archaic "BO3s and deciding factions by VP count" system that plagued CoH tournaments. Under that system matches could be incredibly unbalanced if you were on a map that's particularly good for one faction, yet awful for another. Getting rid of that would be a huge push in the right direction for the tournament/e-sports scene.

thats wher you are wrong... mirror matches just introduce more opportunities for lopsided matches

Well, without going into any detail, CoH2 seems more suited for mirrors than US vs US or WM vs WM in vCoH, but I'm still against it.

This sounds bad for COH2..., if so factions should be more unique to mirror matchups be as much impossible as it can be...

EDIT: Also it actually might be more boring having only 1 matchup in the game, USSR vs Ostheer. We'll be seeing the same matchup over and over again in tournaments because of that. This is what happened in SNF S3, we all know that US vs Wehr is the best matchup but we enjoyed some variety in game play thanks to the OF factions, and tournaments would be less interesting without mirror matches imo.

COH managed to stay interesting for a good while before OF was released, and even since then the preferred matchup for most tournaments still seems to be the vanilla USA vs Wehrmacht.

On the subject of the 'realism' argument: I don't think anyone can successfully argue that COH is realistic and that mirror matches would change that. It's certainly not realistic to begin with, for the reasons 12azor and others have detailed. The problem I anticipate is that in a historically-based game, a mirror match would pierce one's suspension of disbelief. Elements of the game very often deviate from historical accuracy and authenticity, but we manage to suspend disbelief all the same - it would be much more difficult to do so if the Ostheer is fighting the Ostheer.

I suppose that part of it comes from the fact that we subconsciously judge what is and is not a necessary concession to make a playable and enjoyable game; the success of COH has shown that mirror matches are not one of these necessities. The only difference in this thread is that we are attempting to consciously, instead of subconsciously, attempting to articulate this.

thats wher you are wrong... mirror matches just introduce more opportunities for lopsided matches

How so? A mirror match by definition is perfectly balanced.

How so? A mirror match by definition is perfectly balanced.

well, for 2v2s it would change things enormously.
it would also mean map starting positions have a big effect

personally i am against it, it has no place in coh