KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

If the churchill gets nerfed too much, I don't think people are gonna build either of the final two brit tanks. Hammer and anvil will come down to a choice between the perks and everyone will ignore the vehicles

Doomsday prophet here bois.
No one is saying to "nerf too much" churchills, and what is "too much" for you?
It doesnt need a genius to realize that an onvernerfed unit wont be used, but maybe a fair nerf will make churchills be used as much as other factions can play aswell

As it is, very few players pick hammer instead of anvil. And comets are never taken into balance issues since they are not being used (it cant be UP, if it absent from games!).

People did complaint rightfully about KT being a "I WIN" button, but if chruchulls are to become the UKF most important unit, no one bats an eye?

If they get limited to 1, then shouldn't they get buffed with a large price increase? At least feels like the comet in it's current state isn't good enough to limit, and if you nerf the Churchill same for it IMO. Might be good enough now to limit, idk

Cost efficiency for premium units is a very bad idea, there is not a single other unit that does that, neither allied or axis. And cuhrchuills perk is durability and field presence.
So Remove smoke, slap infantry buff aura. Increase frontal armor, reduce some rear armor and decrease its HP pool to make it risky but only to RNG to throw them into the frontlines. Maybe add a unique feature against snaring (an active ability that allows them to move at full speed no matter if they have engine crit).
Those changes will give a high risk/high reward/high skill profile to churchills

Snip

It's just my opinion that taking all the teeth out of final tier units that are supposed to be special is bad for the game. You don't need to troll me because you disagree

The KT has nothing to do with this thread, but i think it too was overnerfed. It went from iwin to an expensive risk. But who cares, you don't have to analyze every post as if there's an agenda behind it

It's just my opinion that taking all the teeth out of final tier units that are supposed to be special is bad for the game. You don't need to troll me because you disagree

The KT has nothing to do with this thread, but i think it too was overnerfed. It went from iwin to an expensive risk. But who cares, you don't have to analyze every post as if there's an agenda behind it

I really dont stand your personal accusations, but moving on.

About taking all the teech, i kindly ask you in the first place, why churchills have to be the bread and butter of UKF? In a open mind sense, cromwells could use some tweak/buffs, so could meteors. But as long as church soak up all the UKF juice, that will never happen.

About the KV1, IMO falls to a similar problem of being a damage sponge but they have less return. Of course a rushed KV1 does wonders, but lategame wise is a paper heavy tank. Pretty much worthless unless you want to give XP to axis TDs. IMO both tanks (KV1, churchills) could use a aura effect. A friendly buff or an enemy debuff.

So Remove smoke, slap infantry buff aura. Increase frontal armor, reduce some rear armor and decrease its HP pool to make it risky but only to RNG to throw them into the frontlines. Maybe add a unique feature against snaring (an active ability that allows them to move at full speed no matter if they have engine crit).
Those changes will give a high risk/high reward/high skill profile to churchills

This isn't a proposal to balance the Churchill.

This is a request to totally replace it with a completely different unit with a completely different role because you don't like the fact a meatshield unit exists.

Besides which, the brits already have a command tank commander doctrinal ability. They don't need a weird command tank in hammer overlapping with it.

The kv1 and Churchill are damage sponges that still can easily do the full 160 damages to tanks. So that's the problem. It doesn't just support infantry,it can do a better job then med tanks, at killing tanks.

Easily? Their guns have low penetration values, mediocre rates of fire and they are on slow vehicles. The KV in particular has the penetration of a t-34,/76, a whopping 80 at long range.

Killing tanks requires pursuit, and pursuit is something neither of these tanks can do.

The kv1 and Churchill are damage sponges that still can easily do the full 160 damages to tanks. So that's the problem. It doesn't just support infantry,it can do a better job then med tanks, at killing tanks.

Oh yeah, that 80 long range pen of KV-1 is going to murderfuck these 180-234 armor P4s.

And yes, they can do a better job then med tanks.

Show Spoiler
Show Spoiler

Unless you're asking for kangaroo transport, which is a damage sponge with no gun, you really have no reasonable argument to complain about guns of KV-1 and church.

Yes thats why my suggestion is to raised armor skirts vet to 120. And we can raise kv1 gun to same as t34/85. This give better dynamics and recognition to the roles assigned. Like if you choose to play Wehr, then you should expect a certain play style.

Right now, the heavy armor vs poor rear armor counter is causing frustration, we have seen a match where wehr played dropped seeing 2 kv1 on field, knowing no where to come back.

You would be the first one to cry nerfs on how overpowered kv with 34/85 gun would be, regardless of what happened to panther....

Also you have no slightest idea what you're talking about, you've posted a replay that featured KV-1, but absolutely nothing about that KV in the whole replay made it seem like its over performing in any way or even performing up to its cost....

Correct me if im wrong, panther is the most expensive and latest nondoc tank. As such you expect it to have attributes better than those before it. You expect it to scale well. If you define panther as mobility and armor TD, then 100 rear armor at vet0, 120 at vet2. This will define its role and reduce stray shots at max range.

Imo because of weak late game for wehr, it makes things more noisy than really is. With the stug buff, we just need to relook panther role. Because early to mid games are pretty ok now.

You would be the first one to cry nerfs on how overpowered kv with 34/85 gun would be, regardless of what happened to panther....

Also you have no slightest idea what you're talking about, you've posted a replay that featured KV-1, but absolutely nothing about that KV in the whole replay made it seem like its over performing in any way or even performing up to its cost....

I saw you attacking me liar, im on mobile now, will revert all your incorrectness

Correct me if im wrong, panther is the most expensive and latest nondoc tank. As such you expect it to have attributes better than those before it. You expect it to scale well. If you define panther as mobility and armor TD, then 100 rear armor at vet0, 120 at vet2. This will define its role and reduce stray shots at max range.

Imo because of weak late game for wehr, it makes things more noisy than really is. With the stug buff, we just need to relook panther role. Because early to mid games are pretty ok now.

Ok.
You are wrong.
Panthers role is different then KV-1 and churchill.
Panther got stats that support its own role and cost.
Churchill and KV-1 got stats that support their own role and cost.
That role and place on the battlefield is not the same, therefore they have different stats.
Panther is fastest tank in the game.
Its rear armor is exposed exclusively if you play badly.
KV-1 and churchill are slow tanks.
Their rear armor is exposed if they do their job correctly, which is spearheading into opposing armies.

Advise:

Stop reversing panther into opponents.

I saw you attacking me liar, im on mobile now, will revert all your incorrectness

That's because you've lied and cast you've linked confirmed it instantly.
Provide a time stamp when there were 2 P4s and a StuG vs 2 KV-1s which you claimed happened or admit to lying.

Also don't make assumptions on what you don't know, ost player most certainly didn't quit because he has seen 2 KVs, he did, because Von was blessed with B4 RNG which crippled ost player enough to make him realize he isn't going to win.

Correct me if im wrong, panther is the most expensive and latest nondoc tank. As such you expect it to have attributes better than those before it. You expect it to scale well. If you define panther as mobility and armor TD, then 100 rear armor at vet0, 120 at vet2. This will define its role and reduce stray shots at max range.

Imo because of weak late game for wehr, it makes things more noisy than really is. With the stug buff, we just need to relook panther role. Because early to mid games are pretty ok now.

I don't know why you're so fixated on this change, but it's almost pointless.

Even if you crank the rear armour up to 120, a Sherman's still got an 83% chance to penetrate the rear armour at maximum range. When you consider that any medium tank trying to kill a Panther is going to close in, the chance rapidly recovers to 100%.

Ok.
You are wrong.
Panthers role is different then KV-1 and churchill.
Panther got stats that support its own role and cost.
Churchill and KV-1 got stats that support their own role and cost.
That role and place on the battlefield is not the same, therefore they have different stats.
Panther is fastest tank in the game.
Its rear armor is exposed exclusively if you play badly.
KV-1 and churchill are slow tanks.
Their rear armor is exposed if they do their job correctly, which is spearheading into opposing armies.

Advise:

Stop reversing panther into opponents.

That's because you've lied and cast you've linked confirmed it instantly.
Provide a time stamp when there were 2 P4s and a StuG vs 2 KV-1s or admit to lying.

Also don't make assumptions on what you don't know, ost player most certainly didn't quit because he has seen 2 KVs, he did, because Von was blessed with B4 RNG which crippled ost player enough to make him realize he isn't going to win.

You have not correct my question. If panther is latest nondoc tank, it does need attributes stronger than those before it. I have identified it's weak armour suspectible to max range shots as a fair fix

In fact let me correct you, crowmell and comet are faster, at vet, they get even faster. Jackson is faster. T34 sherman are comparable.
I dont see how reversing into opponents says anything about my max range shots suggestions.

I don't know why you're so fixated on this change, but it's almost pointless.

Even if you crank the rear armour up to 120, a Sherman's still got an 83% chance to penetrate the rear armour at maximum range. When you consider that any medium tank trying to kill a Panther is going to close in, the chance rapidly recovers to 100%.

Because its a small buff and fair. Allies med gun are 80-120 max range, so it reduces cheap shot from max range, allies need play the same close in stop shoot micro if they intend to use med tanks, panther hp can be considered useful, Churchill kv1 heavy armor have more stress to stay in the fight knowing its harder to hit for 160.

To counter panther should be down to TD and is2, pershing and the likes. Reducing cheap shots from med tanks can have far reaching effect without big chances.

Because its a small buff and fair. Allies med gun are 80-120 max range, so it reduces cheap shot from max range, allies need play the same close in micro, panther hp can be considered useful, late game heavies have more stress to stay in the fight knowing its harder to hit for 160

No, it doesn't. It creates low probability bounces, which are highly frustrating for the attacker when they happen but too inconsistent for the defender to rely on.

Relic calls it 'bad RNG'.

That's why the penetration values are set where they are.

No, it doesn't. It creates low probability bounces, which are highly frustrating for the attacker when they happen but too inconsistent for the defender to rely on.

Relic calls it 'bad RNG'.

That's why the penetration values are set where they are.

I rather take it. Coh is about rng after all

At vet0 100 armor frustrates the aec Cromwell, t3476, sherman, valentine.
At vet2 120 armor, it frustrates the t3485, churchill, kv1, m4c

This is where late panther and its armour make more sense than everyone keep saying now

I rather take it. Coh is about rng after all

At vet0 100 armor frustrates the aec Cromwell, t3476, sherman, valentine.
At vet2 120 armor, it frustrates the t3485, churchill, kv1, m4c

120 armour does nothing to a T-34/85 or M4C.

If a KV-1 or Churchill is flanking your Panther, you screwed up big time.



There used to be a mechanic on the biggest tanks called the Deflection Stun. If their shells bounced, they had a low chance to hard stun the bouncing tank for 5 seconds.

They removed it because it meant you'd just randomly win or lose a tank fight because the deflection stun came up. It was too improbable to plan around, but potentially game-swinging when it did.

If you think that sort of mechanic is a good idea, then we just don't agree at all on game design philosophy.

Yes i remember some rng was removed toned down. I wont mind the deflection stun from super heavies. Maybe not 5s but 2s. Even 5s wont lose a tank in most situation.

I love play coh for the unpredictable games, rng and destroyed covers, so yes im all in for this. Too predicable and relying to much from aps marcros clicking is not nice.

Oh concept of flanking and rear armor needs to change, like i say 50% hit box is big area. This armor buff is all about reducing cheap shots. Right now panther rear can deflect the stuart bren t70, basically not what is expected for latest non doc tank, and from one which needs to close up on super heavies imo

Oh concept of flanking and rear armor needs to change, like i say 50% hit box is big area. This armor buff is all about reducing cheap shots. Right now panther rear can deflect the stuart bren t70, basically not what is expected for latest non doc tank, and from one which needs to close up on super heavies imo

You could give the Panther zero rear armour and a Sherman still won't kill it with max range rear armour shots unless the Panther player is afk.

Because a competent Panther player isn't going to leave it there for 30 seconds.