Some Love to OST

Ost is bad late game.
Allies infantry have survival means more vet levels means more reliablity.

Some poster talk as if no need infantry besides capping and snaring. It means we no need to play VP mode.

To help Ost, we should look at the core design of it. It was a late game faction. The tanks should work better to overcome the lousy infantry. Ideally late Ost build will be tanks and pios and maybe a squad of grens.

But however, the Ost tanks are too expensive in popcap for their performance. Some of you talk as if fielding double panthers is cheap to overcome Allies long range TD and AT guns and fast snares.

Some improvement to Stug and Ostwind is good, but we shall see how they help late game, because their popcap and costs are still there. It means no P4.

Played with the Doctrine. Definitely many occassion they could have been wiped but because of 5 man, they survived. So it is definitely a great help. Would help better if it were non-doc tough. Performs well also.

So use the doctrine then. That's why doctrines exist.
You're not getting that as stock ability.

Ost is bad late game.
Allies infantry have survival means more vet levels means more reliablity.

Allied late game is bad with only 640hp vehicles(brits excluded).
Ost T4 armor have much better survivability, means more vet levels, means more reliability because 960 and 800 is much better then 640.

You can't have the cake and eat it too.

Ost lategame is great

They got access to superb armor. Stupas if they dont outright erase half an infantry squad, deal great model damage, meaning grens lmgs will clean units really fast and thus the unit must run. Allied tanks have to flank them to be able to penetrate it and most ATG have problems from the front.

Panzerwerfers have a tremendous impact against support weapons and static infantry units. It also pins infantry.

Panther is a great at keeping allied tanks at bay and can make great dives thanks to its speed and armor

Grens condition of glass cannon in the late game makes up for the great units and synergy they have. Losing grens to explosives its one thing, but if you lose grens to small arms fire then that unit was overextended or you were outplayed.

Grens shouldn't be alone, grens (despite being able to do it in some circumstances) shouldn't brute force machineguns. Ostheer and soviets relly on combined arms and ostheer has a full rooster of competent units, the best support weapons in the game, a standard medium tank with great escalation through vet and great late game vehicles to compliment their composition.

So - repair bunker asap

So - repair bunker asap

The reason Ost has slow repair is because your supposed to avoid taking too much damage with your armour, there are loads of abilities to help you do that (panzer smoke, command tank, hull down for range, blitz to evade etc etc.)

Slow repair is punishment for not keeping them safer.

They should be punished further

The Doctrine for Cons getting PPSH was produced from 1941-1947, only until 1944 they were able to produce in far larger quantities. Types of box magazine had an impact on PPSH41. The more popular magaizine were the stick magazines.

Drum Magazines were not produced until 1944.


Conscripts should get the PPSH 41 with the mass maunufactured stick magainzes requiring them more often to reload in comparison to Shocktroops who got the Drum Mags. It was not until the end of the war that 55% of its army had PPSH. Still, I think it is justified to say Conscripts should get it. Limited to 3 or 4 units the PPSH for 60 ammo. Should be worse than the doctrine version. Reload should be more frequent also.

The quality and thickness of the mag contributed to its performance. Stick mag having sometimes experience problems and certain failures. Conscripts should get it but worse than the proper PPSH41 Drum mag. Makes sense.

So yeah, they should get the PPSH by default but maybe a worse version since cheaper mags were easier to build, easier to manufacture and produce in mass quantites would fit the ideal weapon for Conscripts. PPSH with stick mag.

Better Equipment were put into to stock for elite/special forces.


Now German G43

G43 was introduced 1943 which was later than PPSh productions. It was given to grenadiers in service but not as many as intended. Around 30 G43 were introduced per each company, so it would be the similar with the distribution of MG42. Roughly 10 out of 30 were scoped while the 20 were iron sights.

So to introduce upgrade for having G43 upgrade is not a bad idea. The weapon was good quality. Good quality took more time. G43 is exceptional. So it would be nice for grens to have by default another upgrade option, G43.

2 G43 options actually.

1./ 60 ammo for 1 "Scoped G43". Similar to that of JLI but worse. Should be very accurate and take 5-6 sec per shot being always precise dealing 16 damage. Cover will RA is ignored but does not ignore green cover damage reduction. Does not shoot any faster the closer the enemy is. Loses, close and mid advantages

2./ Same as the doctrine. 60 ammo. Excel faster in close and mid ranges for "2 G43 with iron sights". Keeps movement. Improves move accuracy. Loses some long range accuracy but improve close to medium range.

This makes hell a lot of sense. It would be even more ridiculous to give every grenadier G43.

So grenadiers will have overall 3 weapon options. Can only pick 1 of the 3. Grens weapon options are 1./ "Scoped G43 (1 only) 2./ "G43 iron sights" 2 provided 3./ MG42.

This will increase style of play for grens. Varying in diversity and very situational.

SU went for mass quantities, cheaper production and cost efficient.
GER went for quality and quantity.

So this whole idea is indeed flawless. Would not make sense at all replacing MG42 with G43 btw. Did some research.

So - repair bunker asap

You're free to pick doctrine featuring it every time you need it.

You're free to pick doctrine featuring it every time you need it.

My point is it should be standard. You could have an upgrade on one of the base buildings.

My point is it should be standard. You could have an upgrade on one of the bas buildings.

I could say that about every second doctrinal ability that isn't off-map strike.
Not really a good argument.

The reason Ost has slow repair is because your supposed to avoid taking too much damage with your armour, there are loads of abilities to help you do that (panzer smoke, command tank, hull down for range, blitz to evade etc etc.)

Slow repair is punishment for not keeping them safer.

Yes and no. It was true when US tanks where paper thin at the introduction of coh2. Now they are much more durable. If you have 3 or more tanks you start losing games because of the difference between repair speeds of US and UK vs ost. In practical situation of a game, ost tanks have to wait for repairs while other factios repair them relatively quickly because of crews and their faster repair speeds, plus very often ability to crit repair. The whole idea of crews repairing faster than dedicated units is just no comment. The fun fact would be that few people realise how much it influences gameplay when you have more tanks lategame. A fully repaired returning Jacksons coming back to finish off damaged tanks is frequent (it looks as if US had two tanks instead of one). It seems that speaking of vehicles' armour and penetration and damge is just not the full picture. How quickly they regain their hp is also a decisive factor when talking about vehicles utility. Unfirtunately, too often neglected.
Look at how oten games finish with ost losing because of victory points. Very often it is due to a sherman killing off infantry just by being able to return to battlefield faster and have much bigger impact on the game than p4. Simple procedure - a sherman shoots some infantry and withdraws, quickly repairs and is back for a few mores shots. Same for allied light vehicles. The impact of such vehicles, especially when there's a few if them is as if you multiplied their number by say 1.6

Yes agree, and for USF, crew repair allow you field more superior infantry!
Allies tanks cost less popcap already.
Besides Allies TD gun improve with vet, and comes with AP or sight rounds, total domination late game.

The whole Ost superior late armor is nonsense in live game now.

Allies late armor are more likely to dominate because of high HP and Armor in case of Brit and Sov, and range, accuracy on move and damages for USF.

You do the sum and can tell why Ost struggle late game.

Ost design is to defend behind cover, but when Allies arty/mortar seems more accurate, we again see Ost late game needs more love.

Unless we change fundamentals, and make rear armor really rear only, the backside of the vehicles and not the 2nd half as it is now. Then i suppose Panther and Brumbar armor is worth a shout.

I have many times got an engine damage P4 to be kill by moving in AT gun because of slow repairs and my MG worth nothing late games against vetted infantry.

Yes and no. It was true when US tanks where paper thin at the introduction of coh2. Now they are much more durable. If you have 3 or more tanks you start losing games because of the difference between repair speeds of US and UK vs ost. In practical situation of a game ost tanks have to wait for repairs while other factios repair them relatively quickly because of crews and their faster repair speeds plus very often ability to crit repair. The whole idea of crews repairing faster than dedicated units is just no comment. The fun fact would be that few people realise how much it influences gameplay when you have more tanks lategame. A fully repaired returning Jacksons coming back to finish off damaged tanks is frequent (it looks as if US had two tanks instead of one). It seems that speaking of vehicles' armour and penetration and damge is just not the full picture. How quickly they regain their hp is also a decisive factor when talkin about vehicles utility. Unfirtunately, too often neglected.
Look at how oten games finish with ost losing because of victory. Very often it is due to a sherman killing off infantry just by being able to return to battlefield faster and have much bigger impact on tbe game than p4. Simple procedure - a sherman shoots some infantry and withdraws, quckly repairs and is back for a few mores shots. Same for allied light vehicles. The impact of such tanks, especially when there's a few if them is as if you multiplied their number by say 1.6

That is very true indeed. Repair plays a decisive role in this game.

This is an issue that is experienced both on WEHR and SU.
Maybe there should be another unit to have the possibility to repair vehciles.

I am thinking that both Conscripts and Panzergrenadiers can have the upgrade repair package similar to what they have available in their doctrines would simply fix the issue.

Therefore Conscripts can be used more often and fulfill more roles of support.
For Pzgrens, since it is a mechanized unit, it would even more fulfill that role but that upgrade choice would lock out the Panzershreks.

Both will have an upgrade what is called "Support Package".

This will definitely help for sure give both of these factions a little nudge to their repair issues.

I suggest give panther a AP round shot at vet1, +25% pen, 100% accuracy, 200 damage. Panther just haven't scaled well late game, since Allies tanks buff. At 18 popcap, it just don't have the firepower to deal with Churchill and KV tanks. It's vet armor skirt is useless against vetted allies guns.

I could say that about every second doctrinal ability that isn't off-map strike.
Not really a good argument.

Bad comparison. A very good argument, as it is the most important issue for ost mid-late game at the moment.

I suggest give panther a AP round shot at vet1, +25% pen, 100% accuracy, 200 damage. Panther just haven't scaled well late game, since Allies tanks buff. At 18 popcap, it just don't have the firepower to deal with Churchill and KV tanks. It's vet armor skirt is useless against vetted allies guns.

Wow. That's just an overkill. You serious? Just allow it to repair a bit faster and see how the gameplay develops.

Bad comparison. A very good argument, as it is the most important issue for ost mid-late game at the moment.

Except it isn't.
And if its such a big issue for you, there is a commander that fixes it.
Again, that's specifically why commanders exist.
You're not getting commander abilities as stock ones.

I suggest give panther a AP round shot at vet1, +25% pen, 100% accuracy, 200 damage. Panther just haven't scaled well late game, since Allies tanks buff. At 18 popcap, it just don't have the firepower to deal with Churchill and KV tanks. It's vet armor skirt is useless against vetted allies guns.

I think just increased penetration and accuracy booster is good enough. I think 200 damage is too much to be honest. Wehr has Pak 40 which is great. I do agree KV and Churchill is annoying. They already have so much health. Nerfing their armour of KV1 (and the one with Flamethrower) since it is 300 armour is insane. IRL they had 90mm some parts making it 100m, so Churchill should have better armour overall.

KV, nerf armour to having the same armour as Churchill.

Would be a clear resolution.

I think OKW suffers more in terms of AT since Raketenwerfer scales badly late game thus having to heavily rely only upon Panther.

Except it isn't.
And if its such a big issue for you, there is a commander that fixes it.
Again, that's specifically why commanders exist.
You're not getting commander abilities as stock ones.

I love you mate - let's tie US armor piercing rounds for AT behind a commander. There is literally a hundred more abilities avaliable for allies wihout commanders while even ost smoke on vehicles needs a commander. You can't have a dedicated unit for repair with slower repair speed than a vehicle crew - it's just a nonsense, period. In my opinion, such bunker would be the best solution but there could be other: Make crews repair speed half of that of engineers and rear echelons. Just make pios and Soviet engies repair at least as fast as the crews on us tanks. Make ost base building upgrade with repair pios, etc.

Wow. That's just an overkill. You serious? Just allow it to repair a bit faster and see how the gameplay develops.

I don't think so, it will be a 1 shot with ammo and cool down. Against 640 tanks, it will take same 4 shots to kill. It's meant to battle kv and Churchill. All allies tanks destroyer got gun buff with vet, panther doesn't. Shooting slightly faster is a global vet bonus.