Soviet Core changes commander Revamp Patch

Why just don't change cons so, that don't make them new variant of penals? What main difference between cons and penals? They cost effectivness. Penals now more cost effective then cons. They could give AT options without fuel and manpower investing. They could use satchels from start.

I suggest next:
Make cons similar to ostrupen concept. They still 6-man squad, but with few important changes: their cost of reinforce decreased to 16 and time of reinforce also decreased.
What we will have? SU player could choose between 2 options: or cheap and fast reinforcmently cons or penals with their firepower.
To not make them abusive froms start will split bonuses: fast reinforce you can get only when you build T1 or T2. Cheap reinforce only when you build medics on base.
Because right now, cons don't look so nicely in comparsion to penals, every player always choose sword not shield.

Vetted upganned (especially 2 weapon wielding) infatry are far more powerful than vet 0 infatry with no weapon.

This is an issue that is not limited to Soviets. That is part of the reason why people usually do not built grenadiers in late game but pioneers.

+1

It's simply natural that high vetted squad is better than fresh one even with additional weapon upgrade. Game promotes those who keep their units alive - that's good.

Even with upgrade you guys cannot expect from cons to win vs obers with lmg or fight equally. That's not their role.

Honestly i played few games with the 7men cons and i don't see the problem how unit performs. I would agree that upgrade comes really late but on the other hand i understand Balance Team why they did that. It's already common strategy to go heavily T3 (2x T70) and then slowly saving for IS-2, ISU-152 or KV-2 and additional upgrade for cons locked in T3 would even more "buffed" that gamestyle.

As Miraflage alraedy said it's almost impossible to make this ability global becouse it takes only weapon slot cons have. That would block PTRS and PPSH upgrade. And blob of vet3, 7 men cons ohraa across the battlefield is not what we need right now.

Why just don't change cons so, that don't make them new variant of penals? What main difference between cons and penals?

It isn't a change. It's a additional upgrade to unit that suppose to buff it late game performance. Penals are offensive infantry that are focus on agressive gameplay while conscripts are supportive and defensive infantry. It's like comparing Panzergrens and ostroopen.

Even with upgrade you guys cannot expect from cons to win vs obers with lmg to high equally. That's not their role.

No one compare cons with obers, evryone compare them with other mainline infantry - grens and volks. Volks cost on 10 MP more, but viable from start to end (and when theu got stg, time for cons is ended). Grens when got their weapon also become very powerfull against cons.

Honestly i played few games with the 7men cons and i don't see the problem how unit performs. I would agree that upgrade comes really late but on the other hand i understand Balance Team why they did that. It's already common strategy to go heavily T3 (2x T70) and then slowly saving for IS-2, ISU-152 or KV-2 and additional upgrade for cons locked in T3 would even more "buffed" that gamestyle.

But when OST sitting on their T3 it's normal? Ost from T3 have all that needed, good mediums that could fight equally good as AI as AT, decent AT with stug and now also will give new Ostwind. If OST choose doc with tiger i think you will never see from him even shadow of T4. In this situation cons in T4 never be looking bright.

It isn't a change. It's a additional upgrade to unit that suppose to buff it late game performance. Penals are offensive infantry that are focus on agressive gameplay while conscripts are supportive and defensive infantry. It's like comparing Panzergrens and ostroopen.

As i said before: make cons for similar concept as ostruppen. This fully resolve problem with penals and cons. Because every buff on attack (i about this buff in defense) or survival make them closer to penals, not to ostruppen.

But when OST sitting on their T3 it's normal? Ost from T3 have all that needed, good mediums that could fight equally good as AI as AT, decent AT with stug and now also will give new Ostwind. If OST choose doc with tiger i think you will never see from him even shadow of T4. In this situation cons in T4 never be looking bright.

Ostheer T3 is not comparable to Soviet T3. Ostheer T3 is more like Soviet T4, with Ostheer T4 being something of a T4.5. Unlike Soviet T3 which is just a stepping stone tier, Ostheer T3 is supposed to be viable as the end of their tech, with T4 being more of a bonus for certain situations.

It gives a natural power spike for the late game that all factions get when they get access to tanks. It doesn't give an additional power spike to infantry. Putting the Cons upgrade behind Soviet T3 however would give them an even bigger shock power spike in the mid game than they already have with the T-70.

Cons being able to not be totally worthless late game is still a poor reason to build them in the first place, when so many better options exist. Even if I'm going T2, one con squad at most handles weapon caps and marges and sandbags. Otherwise, maxims and a mortar into guards or shocks.

Penals and Guards are so generalist, all purpose elite infantry that the 'versatile' conscripts just do not bring enough to warrant including them in an army mix.

They had to be able to cover all bases for years because cons were garbage outside some commander gimmicks. But now somebody is willing to address how garbage they are, its sad that it cannot be in the context of a wider overhaul of soviet infantry, giving them specialist roles so that the generalist conscript can be a worthwhile investment.

Guards and penals both bring all the AI, AT, snare and demolitions you ever need. Sure, cons can now stick around longer, and trade with infantry that is charging towards them while they stand stationary in cover, but that's hardly a big sell compared to the firepower that your alternatives bring with no real downsides.

CardboardBox is right in that Penals are what's killing Conscripts.

Maybe if Conscript Sidetech weren't a thing it might be different.

As Miraflage alraedy said it's almost impossible to make this ability global becouse it takes only weapon slot cons have. That would block PTRS and PPSH upgrade. And blob of vet3, 7 men cons ohraa across the battlefield is not what we need right now.

Then don’t make it take up a weapon slot.

As for 7 man squads with PPSh or PTRS being OP, you’re right, they might be. But I don’t think they would be wildly too powerful especially if they are locked behind T4.

It also encourages Soviet players to tech to T4 rather than go up to T3 and then play for call ins.

Of course this implies that you reduce the 7 man upgrade to only include the free 7th man and the reduced cost, but not give them the other bonuses.

There's an obvious workaround for making the upgrade global.

Make unlocking the ability to get the upgrade global, then make the actual upgrade a 0 muni cost upgrade per squad that has a short build time. Like how storms get MP40s.

There's an obvious workaround for making the upgrade global.

Make unlocking the ability to get the upgrade global, then make the actual upgrade a 0 muni cost upgrade per squad that has a short build time. Like how storms get MP40s.

That does work, but I don’t think 7 man conscripts should be mutually exclusive with the other upgrades. The way I see 7 man conscripts being successful is by making it a simple buff that applies globally via tech, much like the bolster infantry sections that the Brits get except that it is tied to T4 tech being built and not a separate teaching choice.

I think it fits thematically with the Soviet and conscript idea that they individual are still the same, but they get stronger in numbers together. A vanilla conscript squad of 6 men and a 7 man squad that has lost a man should be identical in performance. It just doesn’t make sense that the per man strength of vet 0 cons changes with an upgrade that is not visually observable. 7 man cons should be like 5 man Tommies, it should give literally just one extra guy. 5 man Tommies that take a sniper shot are identical in performance to a 4 man Tommy squad.

PLS chance the description of maxi's bulletin "spray and pray" to have the correct value of 1%