Conscript vs. Gren matchup

the cover problem is true in some cases. it is harder to give cover for all your squad member with conscripts than grenadiers, but enemy units don't really care which squad member they are shooting at so if you're lucky they just shoot at the guys in cover and not the ones in the open.

i don't like how you have to pay for your useless upgrades when grens have them from the start. it only works well in vcoh because rifleman are tougher than volksgrenadiers and have more abilities. what volks lack against rifleman at the beginning is made up for by german combined arms with infantry and support.


conscripts however are the same as grenadiers when fighting against each other on even grounds without using abilities.
although, the conscripts can get combined infantry and support combination a lot easier than the americans can in vcoh. having to pay for normal grenade and AT like abilities is a downside because when spending the same amount of resources the germans get their mg, mortar, grenadiers with grenades and anti tank, the soviets get mg, mortar, conscripts but no AT or grenades.

a bit of asymmetry is good but i only see that design decision just an idea left over from vcoh that only works good with americans but bad idea with soviets due to several reasons. especially when the attacks are easily avoided by the enemy.

I think conscripts lose more often in a 1on1 fight vs grens not only due to the ease of grenadiers to all get into cover. Conscripts also have less survivability per man, so they are usually the first one to lose a man in the beginning of the fight, which decreases their squad dps.

The trip flare is very useful, it's just difficult to find extra micro time and combat downtime to use conscripts to plant them.

The trip flare will outright kill 1 man when triggered, and reveal them in the fog, so you know exactly what's there. Placed in front of a Maxim position, it can actually allow the MG to operate unsupported since it spots targets from a long distance. Any mortars nearby also automatically fire. It'll also trigger unit reactions.

i don't like how you have to pay for your useless upgrades when grens have them from the start.

You need Battle Phase 1 for rifle nades.

How would German players deal with M3 flamer spam if grenadiers had no fausts? Tell me.

conscripts vs grenadiers is more or less equivalent to volks vs british infantry sections. conscripts are there to screen while snipers or flame cars are there to give grenadiers hell.

except the current 'tommies' have access to mobile machine guns, mortars and good mobility on start, grens vs conscripts are pretty balanced, but it is skewed in gren's favor when teching, mg42, LMG42 comes into play.

the boost in dps combined with the 1.5 armour makes grenadiers almost invulnerable to conscripts and vet makes it worse. however, not all hope is lost, as soviets can make snipers and flame cars to maintain power balance.

however, these are clutch units, just to stall the germans from steamrolling. snipers and flame cars are easily hunted down and extremely vulnerable to freak accidents. the real tide turners are soviet's elite infantry. from here on, conscripts are nothing more than mobile AT naders and meat shields armed with pea shooters.

thats the real problem, conscripts are a bad investment. they become deadweights and a manpower drain in the mid-game. they cannot be counted on to give supporting fire because they do almost no damage. sure chuck a nade here, flank a little there, but they are still not a threat.

so in mid game, a typical situation of 4 grens vs 3 conscripts + 1 guards. the combined firepower and abilities of 3 conscripts + 1 guards/shocks will lose to 4 grenadiers with 1-2 LMGs, despite a much larger investment cost from the soviet player, with fuel sinks into abilities and extra mp cost for guards/shock.

grenadiers stay relevant throughout, LMG42 is deadly even to guards and shocks. 1.5 armour keeps grenadiers relatively durable while LMG42 gives them the dps capabilities. nades and fausts turns them into good utility units. long story short, grenadiers are the superior infantry unit.

I think there is potential in making Merge more viable for reinforcing Sov specialist infantry in mid to lategame, therefore meaning yes, the Cons dps remains behind LMGs (G43s are so marginal atm, I think that is a Commanders adjustment, not a fundamental Cons vs Grens issue), but atleast they can cheaply reinforce and help maintain onfield presence.

In theory, at least.

Perhaps increasing Merge range, or ability speed, or granting a small temporary DPS or survival buff immediately after the Merge?

this is not a fundamental conscript vs gren problem, but the fact that conscripts are a shite unit and the entire soviet army does not have a cost effective yet reliable solution just magnifies the problem.

while the solution is seemingly simple, a package to improve conscript's dps, but then the new problem will then be 'conscripts are too effective, there is no need for elite infantry anymore!'

the only way i see is the slight redesign of soviet infantry units to be equal to wehrmacht's infantry tiering system (volks -> grenadiers). conscripts remain the throwaway infantry for soviet army, but the real backbone for fighting would be penals (though i would rather penals be throwaway and conscripts are the army regulars.)

penals should come with 1.25 armour, take cover 15% more efficiently than all infantry while costing 300mp, remove their flamethrower capabilities and give them a dp-28 upgrade packages without button. these way, penals are the dpses of the soviet army, while conscripts remain as combat support, pea shooters but comes with very useful abilities.

I think there is potential in making Merge more viable for reinforcing Sov specialist infantry in mid to lategame, therefore meaning yes, the Cons dps remains behind LMGs (G43s are so marginal atm, I think that is a Commanders adjustment, not a fundamental Cons vs Grens issue), but atleast they can cheaply reinforce and help maintain onfield presence.

In theory, at least.

Perhaps increasing Merge range, or ability speed, or granting a small temporary DPS or survival buff immediately after the Merge?

I like this approach as it's a way of asymmetrically maintaining con utility through out the game without tweaking damage (etc.) values and potentially messing up the early game. The easiest way to make merge more useful would probably be to just allow the merged con to gain the armor value of the squad it's been merged into.

I use merge regularly but it only ever feels like a mediocre gain in manpower as it's often quite situational in it's effectiveness. Merge feels most useful in topping off weapon crews before retreating a con you were going to retreat anyway (which can also be risky) or for reinforcing expensive, low armor units like penals. I opt most often not to merge with guards or scripts when reinforcing in the base as I'd rather have the armor. If merge gave the merged con the armor value of the target squad, it would be significantly more useful and feel less gimmicky. Commanders with no elite infantry would get the short end of the stick though :/

I think that Soviets as well as Germans should be able to fight other faction without using doctrines at all (if both don't use them), doctrines should be expanding possibilities, but not be necessary for fighting non-doctrinal units.

Both conscripts and (especially) Penal squad (they would be fine if they would get AT grenades upgrade or cost 240mp) need a tweak.

I don't like idea of non-doctrinal PPSH global upgrade, but I would not mind an DP-28 global upgrade of tier 1 building, it would add one DP-28 (no button) to conscripts and penal squads but also cost manpower/fuel, delaying other conscripts upgrades and vehicles.