Granted you guys are right, the majority were actually proper soldier and transfers from other brackets like Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine, but I didn’t remember completely wrong as there were quite a few old men and teenagers recruited.
Still, point taken.
Also Vipper, grens might have been the benchmark by relic in th past, but haven’t we gone past that? Every other mainline, save for cons, significantly outperforms them. As for nerfing penals and guards, it would be criminal. The soviets would then be absolutely unplayable until a maxim/cons buff. As for the Volks nerf, no argument there.
Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0
23 Apr 2019, 11:03 AM
#221
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
23 Apr 2019, 11:22 AM
#222
Posts: 868 | Subs: 5
Granted you guys are right, the majority were actually proper soldier and transfers from other brackets like Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine, but I didn’t remember completely wrong as there were quite a few old men and teenagers recruited.
Still, point taken.
Also Vipper, grens might have been the benchmark by relic in th past, but haven’t we gone past that? Every other mainline, save for cons, significantly outperforms them. As for nerfing penals and guards, it would be criminal. The soviets would then be absolutely unplayable until a maxim/cons buff. As for the Volks nerf, no argument there.
UKF and USF are seen as quasi unplayable in tournament settings.
Soviets is seen as most competitive.
Making all allied factions unplayable perfectly goes with Vipper's doctrine of nerf allies, buff axis.
Kriegsmarine. Forgot an E.
Some people believe Penals should be nerfed because "penal" for exact same reason some believe
"volks" should be nerfed because "volks". Yea. a lot of children and old men in there.
- I'd like uniforms to be swapped from Penals to Cons and from Cons to Penals.
And Penals rebranded as Strelski. Give 'em mosins with a DP28 upgrade (and sandbags)
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
23 Apr 2019, 13:10 PM
#223
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Granted you guys are right, the majority were actually proper soldier and transfers from other brackets like Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine, but I didn’t remember completely wrong as there were quite a few old men and teenagers recruited.
Still, point taken.
Also Vipper, grens might have been the benchmark by relic in th past, but haven’t we gone past that? Every other mainline, save for cons, significantly outperforms them. As for nerfing penals and guards, it would be criminal. The soviets would then be absolutely unplayable until a maxim/cons buff. As for the Volks nerf, no argument there.
So what is benchmark now?
UKF and USF are seen as quasi unplayable in tournament settings.
Soviets is seen as most competitive.
Making all allied factions unplayable perfectly goes with Vipper's doctrine of nerf allies, buff axis.
Kriegsmarine. Forgot an E.
Some people believe Penals should be nerfed because "penal" for exact same reason some believe
"volks" should be nerfed because "volks". Yea. a lot of children and old men in there.
- I'd like uniforms to be swapped from Penals to Cons and from Cons to Penals.
And Penals rebranded as Strelski. Give 'em mosins with a DP28 upgrade (and sandbags)
Pls do not put words in my mouth. I did not post that allies should be nerfed and axis buffed. Actually I said the exact opposite that VG should be nerfed and Grenadier not buffed.
23 Apr 2019, 13:13 PM
#224
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
The only benchmark I actually see, if there is such a thing, is the 1bar riflemen vs stg volks matchup.
I don't think you need a benchmark though, considering there are 5 factions. I would be content if everything was balanced around a single unit, but alas that is not what's happening. Case of point, the buffs to Panzergrenadiers had nothing to do with Grenadiers performance, and neither do the upcoming buffs to conscripts which have to do with penals and guards.
I don't think you need a benchmark though, considering there are 5 factions. I would be content if everything was balanced around a single unit, but alas that is not what's happening. Case of point, the buffs to Panzergrenadiers had nothing to do with Grenadiers performance, and neither do the upcoming buffs to conscripts which have to do with penals and guards.
23 Apr 2019, 13:17 PM
#225
Posts: 1660
Granted you guys are right, the majority were actually proper soldier and transfers from other brackets like Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine, but I didn’t remember completely wrong as there were quite a few old men and teenagers recruited.
Still, point taken.
Also Vipper, grens might have been the benchmark by relic in th past, but haven’t we gone past that? Every other mainline, save for cons, significantly outperforms them. As for nerfing penals and guards, it would be criminal. The soviets would then be absolutely unplayable until a maxim/cons buff. As for the Volks nerf, no argument there.
*eye roll*
23 Apr 2019, 13:23 PM
#226
Posts: 3260
The only benchmark I actually see, if there is such a thing, is the 1bar riflemen vs stg volks matchup.
I don't think you need a benchmark though, considering there are 5 factions. I would be content if everything was balanced around a single unit, but alas that is not what's happening. Case of point, the buffs to Panzergrenadiers had nothing to do with Grenadiers performance, and neither do the upcoming buffs to conscripts which have to do with penals and guards.
Relic's early balancing process involved setting initial costs using an 'effective value' equation. They used Grenadiers as the benchmark other infantry squads were compared to.
Vipper's stance, if I've understood it correctly, is that this approach should be continued and all infantry squads should be rebalanced around the Grenadier.
When building the game in the first place, this is a sensible approach. It stops you getting into a cycle of buff leapfrog and keeps the goalposts fixed in one place.
At this point though, with a populated game and very limited balancing resources? It's not hard to see why the balance team chooses to buff one or two squads rather than nerf eight or nine.
23 Apr 2019, 14:06 PM
#227
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Relic's early balancing process involved setting initial costs using an 'effective value' equation. They used Grenadiers as the benchmark other infantry squads were compared to.
Vipper's stance, if I've understood it correctly, is that this approach should be continued and all infantry squads should be rebalanced around the Grenadier.
When building the game in the first place, this is a sensible approach. It stops you getting into a cycle of buff leapfrog and keeps the goalposts fixed in one place.
At this point though, with a populated game and very limited balancing resources? It's not hard to see why the balance team chooses to buff one or two squads rather than nerf eight or nine.
Only that is not what actually happened. Penal and VG where set to be OP compared to Grenadiers and ever since then the changes that had to be implemented involved buffing almost every unit in the game, leaving Grenadier and Conscripts UP. And now there talks about buffing conscripts and Grenadiers so that the circle can begin once more.
Until someone provides I better process I see little alternative than deciding a power level for a unit and balancing all other unit vs that benchmark.
23 Apr 2019, 14:10 PM
#228
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
The thing is, grenadiers are designed to fight from long range with lmgs and have the mg42 covering them from closing units. How can they be the benchmark for units such as the riflemen and volks who are mobile and independent and can fight from mid/close range?
23 Apr 2019, 14:11 PM
#229
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
Only that is not what actually happened. Penal and VG where set to be OP compared to Grenadiers and ever since then the changes that had to be implemented involved buffing almost every unit in the game, leaving Grenadier and Conscripts UP. And now there talks about buffing conscripts and Grenadiers so that the circle can begin once more.
Until someone provides I better process I see little alternative than deciding a power level for a unit and balancing all other unit vs that benchmark.
So make the benchmark riflemen and adjust accordingly.
You can talk about grenadiers all day but clinging to the past doesn't help. Right now, adjusting cons and grenadiers is a much easier fix than adjusting literally everything else
And of the two, cons need a whole lot more attention, which is the point the patch has tried to address.
23 Apr 2019, 14:14 PM
#230
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The thing is, grenadiers are designed to fight from long range with lmgs and have the mg42 covering them from closing units. How can they be the benchmark for units such as the riflemen and volks who are mobile and independent and can fight from mid/close range?
"Infantry Combat Tuning
The intent of these changes is to better define the strengths and weaknesses of each core unit relative to one another. We wanted to better define how each core unit should engage their perspective targets. For example, in a Grenadier vs. Riflemen match up, the Grenadiers want to maintain range. This is now a valid tactic, where in the past it was not. An integral element to this iteration is the introduction of received accuracy in place of raw damage. This was used in instances where additional fire power was not necessary in maintaining the established unit relationships. For example, Grenadier long range fire power is high enough to establish the unit’s relative relationship with other units, allowing us to increase their durability instead. As a by-product of this shift, short and mid range units should have an easier time closing in on their target."
23 Apr 2019, 14:16 PM
#231
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
So make the benchmark riflemen and adjust accordingly.
You can talk about grenadiers all day but clinging to the past doesn't help. Right now, adjusting cons and grenadiers is a much easier fix than adjusting literally everything else
And of the two, cons need a whole lot more attention, which is the point the patch has tried to address.
Setting Riflemen as the benchmark only increases the power level of units. VG and Penal would still be OP, while grenadier and conscripts would still be UP.
Not really Soviet are doing fine the conscript issue is diversity issue not balance issue, it is the Ostheer that struggle.
23 Apr 2019, 14:17 PM
#232
Posts: 1660
So make the benchmark riflemen and adjust accordingly.
You can talk about grenadiers all day but clinging to the past doesn't help. Right now, adjusting cons and grenadiers is a much easier fix than adjusting literally everything else
And of the two, cons need a whole lot more attention, which is the point the patch has tried to address.
I think the issue lies within the fact that mainlines aren't the only element.
OP mainlines caused Panzergrenadiers and Stormtrooper to be useless, and saw more OP cqb squads as well like Rangers and Para to be introduced with durability to stand against mainlines.
Also, at a certain point such high letality becomes too much.
AND is not true that the direction taken is just using WFA mainlines as teamplate, because bren section got a dps reduction.
Same should be done for the other mainlines.
23 Apr 2019, 14:20 PM
#233
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Setting Riflemen as the benchmark only increases the power level of units. VG and Penal would still be OP, while grenadier and conscripts would still be UP.
Not really Soviet are doing fine the conscript issue is diversity issue not balance issue, it is the Ostheer that struggle.
Ostheer does not really struggle because of Grenadiers. Ostheer mainly struggles because of M42 spam, WC-51 Cav Riflemen and 5 men Tommies that can no longer be abused by 222s.
23 Apr 2019, 14:33 PM
#234
Posts: 3260
Setting Riflemen as the benchmark only increases the power level of units. VG and Penal would still be OP, while grenadier and conscripts would still be UP.
Not really Soviet are doing fine the conscript issue is diversity issue not balance issue, it is the Ostheer that struggle.
That's all well and good when you've got a lot of balancing resources available.
In the current circumstances, minimising the amount of balance work that needs doing is a very important consideration. Resources are very limited.
Having a power against cost line you're trying to put units on is a good idea, but in the present circumstances you'd want to draw that line through as many units as possible rather than draw it through Grenadiers and adjust everything to fit it.
23 Apr 2019, 15:08 PM
#235
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
That's all well and good when you've got a lot of balancing resources available.
In the current circumstances, minimising the amount of balance work that needs doing is a very important consideration. Resources are very limited.
Having a power against cost line you're trying to put units on is a good idea, but in the present circumstances you'd want to draw that line through as many units as possible rather than draw it through Grenadiers and adjust everything to fit it.
Actually the changes made MOD are equally big with the changes Relic did.
And it is not even that difficult one has simply to re-roll to original values and make small adjustments.
It is actually allot less work than experimenting with earlier PG and 7 men conscripts.
23 Apr 2019, 15:11 PM
#236
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Ostheer does not really struggle because of Grenadiers. Ostheer mainly struggles because of M42 spam, WC-51 Cav Riflemen and 5 men Tommies that can no longer be abused by 222s.
Tomato tomahto, potato potahto.
Ostheer wouldn't struggle if grenadiers where up to the task and did not have to resort to cheese like FHT, 444 and ostruppen.
23 Apr 2019, 15:18 PM
#237
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
And it is not even that difficult one has simply to re-roll to original values and make small adjustments.
It is actually allot less work than experimenting with earlier PG and 7 men conscripts.
"Simply" re-roll the original values.
Then "simply" make small adjustments to every single infantry squad in the game.
Then "simply" make adjustments to all other crutch units to compensate for the new infantry balance.
Then "simply" make adjustments to lots of commander abilities to compensate for the new infantry balance.
To me that somehow really doesn't sound like less work than introducing one upgrade to Conscripts and a minor timing change for Panzergrenadiers to bring Ostheer and Soviet T0/T2 up to speed.
23 Apr 2019, 15:29 PM
#238
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
Back on the topic of conscripts, can we please actually TRY giving them weapon upgrades, less accuracy bonuses and a 2nd weapon slot?
They don't need to be good upgrades, but letting them pick from a choice of three small, cheap packs lets them be versatile (the utility everyone seems to think is all they should be good for) without making them dominate.
A couple of SVT, a couple of PPSH or a pair of PTRS.
The doctrinal variants are strictly superior and come with more firepower so you can leave them more or less as is.
Letting them synergise with your commander and build with a variety of small upgrade options could go a long way to making the huge sidegrade costs more bearable.
They don't need to be good upgrades, but letting them pick from a choice of three small, cheap packs lets them be versatile (the utility everyone seems to think is all they should be good for) without making them dominate.
A couple of SVT, a couple of PPSH or a pair of PTRS.
The doctrinal variants are strictly superior and come with more firepower so you can leave them more or less as is.
Letting them synergise with your commander and build with a variety of small upgrade options could go a long way to making the huge sidegrade costs more bearable.
23 Apr 2019, 15:31 PM
#239
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
"Simply" re-roll the original values.
Then "simply" make small adjustments to every single infantry squad in the game.
Then "simply" make adjustments to all other crutch units to compensate for the new infantry balance.
Then "simply" make adjustments to lots of commander abilities to compensate for the new infantry balance.
To me that somehow really doesn't sound like less work than introducing one upgrade to Conscripts and a minor timing change for Panzergrenadiers to bring Ostheer and Soviet T0/T2 up to speed.
That is because you are assuming that earlier Pg and and 7 men conscript will actually work an solve the problems
If the approach was working the infatry fights would be balanced 2 years ago and not simply moving to new uncharted water every 6 months.
23 Apr 2019, 15:41 PM
#240
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
That is because you are assuming that earlier Pg and and 7 men conscript will actually work an solve the problems
If the approach was working the infatry fights would be balanced 2 years ago and not simply moving to new uncharted water every 6 months.
"Stop putting words in my mouth". I never said I am assuming this approach is gonna work for sure and solve all problems. I only said that this approach is much less time consuming than adjusting over half of the game's balance. The resources to do that are not available anymore. At this stage of the game's development, if a band-aid fix might work well enough, it is very much preferable to explore that option rather than having to adjust countless unit stats in order to make a few units work (which again would be nigh impossible with the current resources).
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