Ostruppen seriously

I think you are "hilariously", "horribly", "painfully", and "extremely" understating Maxims, as well as presenting long drawn out and contrived scenarios that don't actually obviate the point, but rather obscure it under a massive stack of situational circumstances that are not objective, but rather a scripted re-enaction the only purpose of which fictional existance, is to superficially "support" your point full of hyperbole.

Dont build Maxims then. Not my problem.

Don't worry, I'm not building them just like 95%(a number pulled straight out of my arse based on people I've faced on automatch) of the player base.

If that last post was TL;DR, then I'll give you the short version: maxims are a horrible counter to osttruppen in 1vs1 because the usual osttrup tactics magnify all but one problem that the maxims already have against normal german T1 play (slow to get to the field, bad against being mobbed, really bad against T2 vehicles) while severely limiting the amount of impact in terms of manpower control they have. If only osttruppen had riflenades we could say all maxim problems were increased when facing them.

You have it completely backwards
HMGs are the answer to spammed infantry.

Thats exactly when you build them.
Claiming HMGs are bad vs spammed infantry is just flat out wrong.
Their whole point specifically is to control infantry blobs and deny access to map.

You have it completely backwards
HMGs are the answer to spammed infantry.

Thats exactly when you build them.
Claiming HMGs are bad vs spammed infantry is just flat out wrong.

And this is where it shows that you don't play this game. HMGs in CoH2 are awful against massed infantry (even when they all come from the same general direction) and perform best in situations where they are only facing one squad at a time. Please don't try to apply vCoH or real life logic here.

Then what, in your mind, are HMGs built for?

For countering one infantry squad? Seriously, Im intrigued what you think they actually are for.

Suppress, change target, Suppress, redeploy (fast with Maxim), even better if into a building with good LoS against which Ostys are utterly handicapped.

Its a force multiplier, meaning it SUPPORTS your other infantry (presumably Cons in this situation). Its not going to beat the entire Osty horde on its own, ofc, nor should it, but that seems to be the "expectation" you have of it, and inlight of which you claim it doesnt achieve that (ofc it doesnt) and is therefore somehow useless.

With its fast setup you can corale off entire sections of the map, in progressive sequence, with offensive deployment.
Osties dont even have RNade to threaten it.

Then what, in your mind, are HMGs built for?

For countering one infantry squad? Seriously, Im intrigued what you think they actually are for.

Suppress, change target, Suppress, redeploy (fast with Maxim), even better if into a building with good LoS against which Ostys are utterly handicapped.

Its a force multiplier, meaning it SUPPORTS your other infantry (presumably Cons in this situation). Its not going to beat the entire Osty horde on its own, ofc, nor should it, but that seems to be the "expectation" you have of it, and inlight of which you claim it doesnt achieve that (ofc it doesnt) and is therefore somehow useless.

I view them as a soft counter to more expensive infantry units.

For maxims I build them to counter excessive use of PGs. If my opponent makes 2 or more PG squads I'll tend to get maxims out to try and pin them. I don't expect the maxims to get anything done against grenadiers except when my opponent screws up and walks straight into the cone while another unit from my side is giving vision so they can't just rnade interrupt it. I'll also never build one if I expect a flameht to show up in the near future.

For MG42s I'll build them on maps that have very clear cutoffs with limited directions to approach from to help in locking them down (Langres) or when the opponent is getting a lot of guards and shocks (even if shock smoke nades tend to make MG42s rather ineffective at suppressing them, so I'm just as likely to opt for snipers instead). I fully expect to have to pack the MG42 as soon as a conscript squad looks at it funny if I don't have several with overlapping fields of fire.

Maxims still don't deploy fast except when going forward. You really should try playing soviets atleast once in your life to see just how fast that little thing spins around when you give it a redeploy order in the same place or god helps you behind it.

Nobody is expecting them to beat any hordes on their own, but for them to work as a counter against something then a given MP in HMGs really needs to be able to deal with a greater amount of MP in infantry (because the HMGs are a huge liability against vehicles). Which they don't do right now except against elite squads that cost more manpower per squad.

maxims are a horrible counter to osttruppen in 1vs1 because the usual osttrup tactics magnify all but one problem that the maxims already have against normal german T1 play

Why are you comparing to "normal german t1" when we are specifically discussing abnormal and Commander exclusive Osty play, that is FUNDAMENTALLY different from normal builds?

In this we are dealing with Osties, not Grens. This is a fallacious argument contrived on a false comparison, veiled as if it was relevant, when infact you are comparing to something that is. Not. Even. The. Case. In this discussion.

(slow to get to the field,

Maxims are no slower to thr field against Osties, than they are vs conventional builds. In fact they are laterally faster, owing to the relativeo slower map progression of Osty builds, due to the 50% cap time.

Therefore Maxims are infact BETTER vs Osty builds, than vs "normal Ost T1" you irrelevantly compare to.

Again, another fallacious argument.

bad against being mobbed

Wat? Maxims are better against mobs than ANY OTHER INFANTRY UNIT SOV HAS!
How can you even state differently, lol?

really bad against T2 vehicles

How is this a "bad" thing in any relevant relation? We are talking about Osty spam here, not T2 vehicle spam.
It goes without saying that Maxims ARE NOT A VEHICLE COUNTER.
That doesnt mean they do not perform their primary crowd control function however.
Again, a fallacious and contrived argument. This time based on the false implication that in order to be "good", Maxims should be effective vs both infantry AND light vehicles, and therefore are "bad" because they are only good vs infantry. Nope, sir.

while severely limiting the amount of impact in terms of manpower control they have.

This doesnt even make sense, as a sentence.
A Maxim limits its own impact in terms of manpower control it has?
I dont even what you are trying to state here.

If you are trying to say that Maxims do not cause enough direct MP attrition to equal their own cost, that is a false argument, because that is not what HMGs are supposed to do. They are not supposed to killkillkill to validate their own cost. Expecting them to do so, and then claiming they are "bad" when they dont, is only a result of your own false premise. Yes they are "bad" at killing infantry to equal their own cost, but SO WHAT. Thats like saying Snipers are bad because they dont suppress.

If only osttruppen had riflenades we could say all maxim problems were increased when facing them.

Yet another contrived argument. Trying to present the ADVANTAGE Maxims have vs Osties, as if it was somehow a negative facet by phrasing in an inverted form. Pretty dishonest, in terms of argumentation, and speaks of deliberately and intentionally biasing unilateral discussion. Im sorry, but this kind of deliberate enforced and obstinant negativity is not conducive to objective analysis or argumentation. Basically it amounts to "arguing the point from this side of the coin, no matter what", is dishonest and biased.

Osties DONT have RNade. This explicitly and specifically makes Maxims GOOD vs them, not vice versa.

Why are you comparing to "normal german t1" when we are specifically discussing abnormal and Commander exclusive Osty play, that is FUNDAMENTALLY different from normal builds?

Ok, so I can't compare anything with anything because they're fundamentally different.

Maxims are no slower to thr field against Osties, than they are vs conventional builds. In fact they are laterally faster, owing to the relativeo slower map progression of Osty builds, due to the 50% cap time.

Should I point out that you have 4 squads (1 pioneer, 3 osttrup) capping by the time the first grenadier squad would come out? Ie. Even with a 50% reduction in cap speed they'll still cap quite a bit faster than a T1 build. Maybe even 5 squads, not totally sure about the timing of that fourth osttrup squad as I only played a couple of troll games with the commander.

Wat? Maxims are better against mobs than ANY OTHER INFANTRY UNIT SOV HAS!
How can you even state differently, lol?

Again, try playing the game for once and show us how your magnificient HMG usage counters massed infantry. You'll be praised by everyone who still gives a shit in the community.

How is this a "bad" thing in any relevant relation? We are talking about Osty spam here, not T2 vehicle spam.

Well, in case you haven't noticed (oh right, you can't seeing how you don't play), most players using Osttruppen will opt to go for T2 vehicles and PGs extremely quick, or at the very least have the option to do this at any point they so desire (the point where the soviet player decides to make multiple maxims, for example). So yes you might as well expect multiple T2 vehicles whenever you're playing against someone using osttruppen

It goes without saying that Maxims ARE NOT A VEHICLE COUNTER.
That doesnt mean they do not perform their primary crowd control function however.

They're so badly countered by vehicles that you're forced to babysit them with one or more conscript squads at all times. You don't think there's a problem with having to keep most of your units together while facing an opponent with far more squads and map control than you?

A Maxim limits its own impact in terms of manpower control it has?

There's no difference in suppression received for units. You can suppress PGs in the exact same time as it takes to suppress osttruppen. As such the HMGs are far more efficient MP wise when firing at more expensive units.

Yet another contrived argument. Trying to present the ADVANTAGE Maxims have vs Osties, as if it was somehow a negative facet by phrasing in an inverted form.

It's an advantage, but hardly one that would counter there being twice as many squads of osttrup on the field as there would be grenadiers.


To offset the rant, some actually useful advice:

Forget about maxims (or lol clown cars as some heroes on Hans stream once told me to build) just make mortars. Preferrably the 120mm kind just because they have a much higher chance of oneshotting osttrups. You'll be slaved to the RNG for your success, but atleast when you get smiled upon by the RNG gods then your opponent will be in for a lot of pain.

Ok, so I can't compare anything with anything because they're fundamentally different.

You made the false and contrived argument that since Maxims are "bad" in your perception vs normal Ost builds, they automatically are also bad vs Osty builds.

If you can't see how this is dishonest, false and illogical, thats your own problem.

Should I point out that you have 4 squads (1 pioneer, 3 osttrup) capping by the time the first grenadier squad would come out? Ie. Even with a 50% reduction in cap speed they'll still cap quite a bit faster than a T1 build.

Those 3 OstT are capping at the equivalency of 1.5 Grens.
That is a marginal advantage at best, and one that is warranted on the Commander because THAT IS WHAT OSTRUPPEN AS A T0 UNIT DO.

This is NOT an issue, and was deliberately and specifically fixed/changed by Devs in the recent patch. Unless you claim the Devs "did it wrong".

Again, try playing the game for once and show us how your magnificient HMG usage counters massed infantry. You'll be praised by everyone who still gives a shit in the community.

Implying you are using your HMGs magnificently yourself.

Again, you insist on false argumentation and deliberately contriving discussion.

Well, in case you haven't noticed (oh right, you can't seeing how you don't play), most players using Osttruppen will opt to go for T2 vehicles and PGs extremely quick, or at the very least have the option to do this at any point they so desire (the point where the soviet player decides to make multiple maxims, for example). So yes you might as well expect multiple T2 vehicles whenever you're playing against someone using osttruppen

So what. Maxims are not a vehicle counter. When Ost goes T2 vehicles, you should be progressively teching yourself as well. Trying to somehow claim that "why do I have to tech to counter vehicles when Ost techs to build them" is a bad thing, is flat out ridiculous. Ofc you have to build/tech something else to answer what he build/techs.

This is not an argument against Maxims to counter the OstT spam.

They're so badly countered by vehicles that you're forced to babysit them with one or more conscript squads at all times.

So what? Ofc you have to babysit your HMGs.
No wonder you are failing with HMGs if you are USING THEM ON THEIR OWN.
They are a SUPPORT TEAM, and DO NOT FUNCTION WELL ON THEIR OWN.

You don't think there's a problem with having to keep most of your units together while facing an opponent with far more squads and map control than you?

No lol. Ofc not. Thats perfectly normal in RTS and in any number of builds/strats.
You are implying that it isn't normal or acceptable, which is ridiculous. Ofc it is normal.

There's no difference in suppression received for units. You can suppress PGs in the exact same time as it takes to suppress osttruppen. As such the HMGs are far more efficient MP wise when firing at more expensive units.

False logic. The correct statement is this:
They are EQUALLY effective vs ALL INFANTRY, ALSO THE MORE EXPENSIVE ONES.

THAT is the correct statement and logic. Not your deliberately contrived and biased claim that since they dont somehow suppress Pgrens better than they do OstT, makes them "bad".

It's an advantage, but hardly one that would counter there being twice as many squads of osttrup on the field as there would be grenadiers.

Its an ADVANTAGE. PERIOD. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Maxims COUNTER OSTIES EVEN BETTER THAN THEY DO GRENADIERS.

Wait, how do maxims counter Ostruppen? One is a call-in at T0, while the other comes out of a building that costs 240/40 and takes almost a minute to build.

When the first maxim comes out, there should already be 6 ostruppen on the field (or more realistically 3 ostruppen and a sniper).

At which point, they counter them.

You expect to have a T0 counter that categorically and automatically makes OstTs useless, or something?

There are then 6 OstT on the field which are all patently useless vs your Maxim(s).

Again, try playing the game for once and show us how your magnificient HMG usage counters massed infantry. You'll be praised by everyone who still gives a shit in the community.

He has been in matches recently, a couple of games the past week I believe . He does present his ladderstats in the signature, looking at ladderstats over a period of time reveals a thing or two. Not saying the games were long or short, just that there is a change in stats.

Nullist, the problem is that those six Ostruppen will, on Semois or Kharkov or Kholodny or whatever, be in or near enough to the key buildings when your maxim gets out. At which point your maxim will be useless against them. On a map/bit of the map without any good buildings, the Ostruppen will wait until they have 1cp and a halftrack then trench creep, at which point the maxim won't be very effective.

I kind of expect a unit which you can get a 2:1 ratio of to be cost inefficient against basic infantry. Right now two Ostruppen squads are at least equal to a gren or a conscript squad in a small arms fire scenario and better against snipers, scout cars, MGs (because you can't suppress both of them) or whatever, in addition to having more map presence, letting you occupy twice as many buildings, cap more sectors... and that's without the trenches.

Ofc two OstT are better than a single gren or con. At cost, that is entirely justified.
I dont understand what you are trying to say on that.

Can you rephrase your point please?

could i dare say penile batallions? i wish you didnt have to make a gimicky reinforce to make them cost effective. you know i wonder why did i say that... do people build them?

Ofc two OstT are better than a single gren or con. At cost, that is entirely justified.
I dont understand what you are trying to say on that.

Can you rephrase your point please?

2 Ostruppen cost 240mp. 1 con or gren costs 240 mp (a gren also requires a tech structure). 2 Ostruppen squads are both flat out better than a con or gren squad and have twice the field presence, are more than twice as good vs. snipers, M3s, grenades etc etc.

If you get twice the utility and field presence of basic infantry, you should not be equally cost effective in a fight, let alone more cost effective. If Ostruppen are going to stay at 120mp, to be balanced they would need to be less than half as effective as a grenadier or conscript squad because of the extra utility of having two squads as opposed to one.

2 Ostruppen cost 240mp. 1 con or gren costs 240 mp (a gren also requires a tech structure). 2 Ostruppen squads are both flat out better than a con or gren squad and have twice the field presence, are more than twice as good vs. snipers, M3s etc etc.

If you get twice the utility and field presence of basic infantry, you should not be equally cost effective in a fight, let alone more cost effective.

they should be like engineers, perhaps get a fixing skill instead of panzerfaust. and they would change from nothing can go past me. to suportish unit for caping building trenches and fixing tanks.

they should be like engineers, perhaps get a fixing skill instead of panzerfaust.

Why would you get pios if you had a six-man 120mp repairing unit, though? Overlap with piospam would be pretty big as well.

(My current fix thoughts: They should probably go up by at least 60mp and thus 5 reinforce cost, probably lose the faust so they don't hard counter Tier 1 as much as they do, maybe lose bunker building to differentiate them from grens a bit more, have capping returned to normal so they operate as a cheap early map presence and recrewing utility unit rather than a why-would-you-ever-get-a-gren unit.)

Ofc two OstT are better than a single gren or con. At cost, that is entirely justified.
I dont understand what you are trying to say on that.

Can you rephrase your point please?

So two Conscript squads should be better than one PanzerGrenadier or one AssaultGrenadier which isn't happening,why??? )
Off-Topic:Also IS costs way more than Tiger and Panther ,but still gets owned by them...so the price claim isn't justified at all
Sorry Nully

j O k E r: So two OstT shouldnt be able to beat 1 Con?
How many should it need? 5? 20? 100?
Sorry Poker.

j O k E r: So two OstT shouldnt be able to beat 1 Con?
How many should it need? 5? 20? 100?
Sorry Poker.

They are too spammable,so the answer is no...had games when the opponent had 4 Ostruppen squads the first minute...I had 1 Conscript squad out at the time so I believe you can imagine that was a disastrous game for me...
Conscripts are pretty useless the way they are now,this unit makes them even more useless,so sorry I can't agree with you on this point