Ostruppen seriously

Alright, so doctrinal Ostruppen are a

0cp
120mp 6-man unit with very quick recharge on the call-in. I believe 3 or 4 squads come out at around the same time as the first conscript
with a 10mp reinforce cost and near-instant reinforcement
gives very little vet and gains a lot of vet very quickly
require no tech building, unlike almost all other German infantry

their stats are weak, but with the cover and the accuracy bonus that's mooted by trenches and buildings, in which they become perfectly effective.

Stats courtesy of Tensai Oni:
For 240 MP, you get units with 576 effective HP (20% more than Conscripts) and potential DPS equal of 80% of Conscript potential DPS (without cover - it's up to 160% if all squad members would be in cover).

can

Faust (this requires the Tier 1 building, I believe)
Build bunkers

and at 1cp

build trenches
for free
in neutral and enemy territory
and cap and deny caps from inside them
(trenches, incidentally, can be entered and left almost instantaneously AND unlike buildings have only a low (I believe it's 25%) chance of killing any model inside them on destruction.)


changed since this post: Ostruppen now cap at half speed

----

So... 1) does anyone think that's remotely balanced?

2) the rapid reinforcement or whatever it's called Ostruppen, which takes some skill to deploy at the right time, come out mid-game (3 cps, right?) are obviously a lot less useful than the call-in Ostruppen spam because they arrive later when the Soviet can already be established on the field, they cost munis and require the loss of a comparatively large number of higher MP models to deploy (so, a minimum of around 150mp of models need to die, if they're all pios, for instance). And they don't come with trench-building. Do other people agree with me that there should be some sort of improvement for that as well?

4) further questions for the people who think it's balanced right now:
a) what do you do to counter it on a map like Semois or Kharkov which is heavy on buildings? have you had any success on these maps against players who are just as good as you Ostruppen spamming?
b) what is your recommended counter?
c) at the earliest time your recommended counter can hit the field, assuming even map control, how many Ostruppen squads can be on the field?
d) what is the cost of your recommended counter (include the manpower cost of T1 or T2 if you have to build that straight off the bat...) - how many Ostruppen units does it cost?

5) how do people think this should be fixed?

(postscript: can we please avoid any p2w/dlc commander arguments here and focus on the balance of the unit)

Why oh why are trenches free? Sniper resistant, mortar resistant, build while capping cap while deployed free.

I think flame weapons should be more effective against trenches. e.g. flamethrowers and molotovs.

1)No

•  
  

  1

  VS

  Ginnungagap

  [HQmul]CondemnationWings

  How do you beat Osttruppen spam?

  by: Ginnungagap map: Langreskaya

  3

  -

2)Yes

5)First i thought removing the ability to faust with T1 would be good, so a pure Osttruppen spam with snipers for example can be countered by soviet T1, but that's not enough.

They are simply too cost effective, so increasing their cost and cooldown slighty (160mp-ish) might do the trick.

Plus make the trenches buildable only in friendly territory, like normal bunkers.

I think the faust needs to be remove so clown car can be effective vs. them and probably put them at 160mp.

EDIT: I answered 4) on what is currently the best way to counter ostruppen spam at the moment, I still think it's completely unbalanced.

4) Semois is easier to work with since there are less buildings on the map and they are all spread apart adequately. On that map the best way I counter ostruppen spam is by sending my first engineer to the house next to the fuel point right in front of the bridge on the right side of the map, that way your opponent isn't able to grab that important fuel point as easily. After this is done I usually spam 4-5 conscripts and upgrade to mollies asap to keep the ostruppen out of buildings. I don't try and overextend my lines as the Ostheer player can easily outcap/cut me off. So I focus on the points connecting to the two fuels on that map, once you have the fuel you can go for a fast T-70 or tank of your choosing. To deal with a fast flamer halftrack until then the best option is an at nade upgrade/guards combo, make sure you have at least 2 cons and a guard to engage the flamer halftrack to take it out.(flank with conscripts, throw at nades, finish off with guards(use building to your advantage if he's backing away with flamer halftrack out of sight(focus fire on halftrack when in building(click on building then click on object you want your guards to shoot at).) On Kharkov it's a real pain to deal with, I'm going to admit. Due to the fact that that map was basically designed for ostruppen as buildings are side by side and cutoffs are put in weird places and perfect for a flamer halftrack/inf combo. I have yet to figure out an adequate way to deal with ostruppen spam on that map as the buildings force you to engage with the enemy(since the map is basically 80% buildings).

5) The easiest way to fix this would be to make it 1 CP or 25 munitions, that way you actually have a chance early game and your opponent isn't able to spam 10-20 ostruppen squads. After this is done I think removing the faust/mg bunker, and making trenches 50-100mp(like making a fire) would fix things right up.(ostruppen are crappy infantry, they aren't experienced and therefore shouldn't have the ability to make bunkers as they're merely recruits.)

The unit is currently not balanced and there are a number of possible solutions to fix it including:

1. increase cost slightly
2. increase call-in cool down significantly
3. make them 1cp available
4. make trenches in captured territory only
5. make trenches cost mp
6. remove faust

I personally think cool down should be increased significantly and faust removed as a first step.

Yes they need a nerf and I play mostly germans. However cons spam are also abit OP against many of the Germans doctrines (without an early FHT) which is one reason why many players are starting to abuse Osttruppen to counter cons spam. I dislike playing with Osttruppen spam but also dislike pure cons spam. So the early balance kinda sucks atm for both factions. COH2 should be about using combined arms not spam.
But I dont blame Relic but SEGA policy, just look at Total War Rome 2 which should still be a beta game. I doubt Relic's balance team had enough time to test and balance the new commanders (a good idea, but poorly executed!). Relic is not that stupid to make it pay to win.

Fix:
- Trenches should cost manpower similar to fire pit OR make trenches in captured territory only
For the insane early cap power of 6 osttruppen squads this could be fixed in several ways but best imho;
1) Make vet weaker so they dont scale into the midgame
2) Limit the squads you can get to 3-4 similar to relief infantry
3) Longer call-in cooldown

Short term fix similar to assault grenadiers (until a long term fix has been tested):
1) Make each squad cost at least 15 munition so the FHT come later and players have to build some T1 units before they have 90 munitions for 6 ostruppen squads.

Definitely need some kind of nerf..

Best would be..

Increase call in time significantly

And

Build trenches only in friendly capture points.

I think they should be able to scale into mid game, that's fine. I really like the concept and want them to stay useful. Especially so once other balance changes might even the scales.

Longer cool down seems like the safest bet, especially since they don't have much combat value like AGrens, so they shouldn't cost another resource. Getting one out early is still very useful since it's a cheap capper. Just not a cap the entire map situation.

I dont think they should be 1 cp because then they are useless and that takes away the possibility of unique strategies using them. I do think the cool down should definately be increased and they shouldnt have faust and bunkers only buildable in friendly territory and its all good. maybe their reinforcement time increased a bit too.

Definitely need some kind of nerf..

Best would be..

Increase call in time significantly

And

Build trenches only in friendly capture points.

+ 1 these would be best changes at the moment I suppose I can live with them having faust but imo faust is pretty bullshit altogether always causing engine damage and sometimes even practically immobolizing tanks it really makes using vehicles as Russians even more rediculous as if it werent bad enough with all german armour completely outclassing you.

remove faust


conscripts win, the capping is like a glass cannon, you'll probably wipe 2-3 of their squads unless they play flawlessly and PPSH's absolutely wreck them

remove faust

Yes.

remove faust


conscripts win, the capping is like a glass cannon, you'll probably wipe 2-3 of their squads unless they play flawlessly and PPSH's absolutely wreck them

By the time ppsh is available they have already done their damage and badly starved the soviet player for resources. That's why a significant call-in delay would help in that regard.

By the time ppsh is available they have already done their damage and badly starved the soviet player for resources. That's why a significant call-in delay would help in that regard.

PPSH needs to be CP 1, then.

just kidding, that would probably ruin a lot of things


1 conscript squad can win against 3 osttruppen with molotovs, i've done it before tons of times

Think theese four changes stated above are enough to stop outright spam of the units, and make them lock down territory. Agree that they should not cost muni or require 1cp.

Slight cost increase.
Increase call-in cool down.
Trenches only buildable in captured territory.
Trenches cost MP

The cost increase and call in cooldown will result in less building lockdown (something that will most likely continue to be a problem until they change how buildings work), they will still be able to do this, but to a smaller extent. It will also delay tech or other infantry if spammed.

Build only in friendly territory I feel is kind of a no-brainer.
Trenches for MP will also mean a delay that I think is necesarry.

1 conscript squad can win against 3 osttruppen with molotovs, i've done it before tons of times

Sounds like someone absolutely horrid playing with osttrups. Even without a single squad being in cover three osttruppen will win against one conscript squad, nevermind if they're in cover for that 100% accuracy bonus (and you have to realize just how easy it is to get that as it's applied to the entire squad if one member is in cover).

You're better off skipping molotovs against osttruppen because you just can't afford to spend that fuel and manpower on them. Molotov damage relies almost purely on instacrits, and a minor chance to instacrit 10mp models is hardly worth it. Only time I'd upgrade molotovs against osttruppen is if there are several buildings to clear them out of ie. semois. But I just don't play semois at all because I find it so ridiculous to face osttruppen on that map right now.

Personally I'd like to see (like some have mentioned before) Osttruppen be a 30 second cooldown, and no faust. Or 30 second cooldown and atleast halve the cover accuracy bonus they receive. Also trenches absolutely shouldn't reduce explosive damage into them by so much (it's pointless to throw any nades that aren't molotovs into the trenches because they'll kill absolutely nothing), it's ridiculous that only flame weapons will deal reasonable damage into them.

the nerf will come (less damage, but PLZ is not enough), that I do not understand is why they nerfed in 2 second the AS but not Ostruppen mah ...

Relic, with Ostruppen have transformed the Germans in Russian ... stalin is not amused, and neither are we

I agree with 'no Faust', as flamer-Scout-Cars & Conscript molotovs would be a decent counter to them now, as it still deters building play.

As for Trenches, yeah, how did that get past testing? they should NOT be able to be built in enemy territory, they are effectively mini-buildings.

As i said before, removing the faust ability is not the solution. A quick M3 can be countered by the 222 no problemo, since you skip T1 it comes out just as fast.

It would look like this:

7 Osttruppen vs. 3 Conscripts on the field
--> into
7 Osttruppen, 222 vs 3 Conscripts and flamer M3 on the field

You will loose your M3 (since you don't even have 1 CP for the Guards) and the whole map, removing the faust solves nothing at that point.