Game breaking items

I'm listening my grievances in hopefully a constructive manner. I've tried to refrain from any balance related things because balance comes over time and we've seen the game get better with each patch in that regard, so kudos to that team.

I have honestly tried to stick with this game. I preordered the collectors edition based on my hundreds of hours of CoH1. I've waited months and months during beta and after official release for things to get better. But I just can't do it anymore. My whole circle of friends I played CoH1 with has stopped playing, and this is the list we came up with.


Command Input Lag

This is completely, 100% inexcusable. I have never had this problem in any other game, definitely not to this extent. I don't know why this hasn't been issue #1 for the relic team, but it needs to be. All the balance in the world doesn't matter if you can't actually play the game.


Pathing

Reverse gear was a nice addition, though as a CoH1 player I still just do the shift+small move backwards thing. All vehicles and retreat suffer from really poor pathing. When issuing a forward command I can have a tank do 3-4 90 degree turns before deciding it can get over a pebble. When issuing a retreat sometimes the models just stand there doing nothing, or need to all bunch up before retreating.

I don't know if this is going for some sort of realism, but I don't think realism should be the focus. I played a few rounds of CoH1 and the vehicles felt so responsive in comparison.


Survivability

I feel that everything dies too slow or too fast in this game. Small arms fire is still completely RNG based making for frustrating and boring early game. Yet full health squad wipes, even with defensive vet bonuses, are way too common from mortars, mines, or lucky tank shots. Retreat bonuses are non existent.


Buildings

Building cover vs small arms fire is completely wrong and has been during beta and release, despite being brought up hundreds of times. A lot of maps have key points overlooked by a building, making early games into a boring camp fest. There are limited ways to counter such as building a mortar or molotovs or getting lucky with RNade insta kill, but that's insufficient.


Maps

There are very few good maps to play on. Most are either too big, either because they're just simply too big or because you're playing 2v2 on a 4-6 map. There is still no community map builder, only a vague mention of one from a producer letter around a month ago.

welcome to COH2

Command Input Lag

It's a shame and quite a backstep from vCoH. Sadly i doubt it can or will be optimized beyond the "1 frame delay".


Pathing

Yes it's bad and can be game deciding. My favourite experience is with the gap in the hedge southern of the middle VP on Langreskaya: As you said, vehicles drive next to the gap, turn 90 degrees in one direction, drive for half a meter, turn 90 degrees in the other direction, and finally go through the gap.

Also: It might be realistic, but some vehicles (e.g. the halftrack) really like to go a bit forward right after you're issuing a reverse command which is not 100% straight backwards. Hello Mr. AT nade.


Survivability

Vet and retreat bonuses only helps against small arms. One way to reduce full squad wipes as you descriped would be to give them more health instead of armour with vet.

Most of my vet 3 troops die instantly only to explosive weapons, so i would welcome a change too. The less RNG the better.


Buildings

I'm not so much on the fence with the cover provided by buildings, even against snipers - just make the counters against it reliable and consistent. No stupid RNG critical on your approaching flamethrower equipped pioneer, no one-shotting rifle nades, no zero damage grenades.


Maps

Untick the larger maps; cholodny, langreskaya and semoiska for example aren't bad maps. New good maps will come over time, though the map builder surely would reduce the time significantly.

Totally agree on this

Command Input Lag

one time my panther try to cross a ice river while there is a bridge only 1m away from where it crossing and enemy T34 approach i order panther to back my side of river (it was on ice making weird turns), but my tank decide not to stop but keep going forward and end up on enemy side of river, i thought, ok fine, i order my tank go forward but my tank start backing up and back on ice and got 1 shot to bottom of river. i am like WTF!!!!

Pathing

this thing need serious fixed, during a city 17 winter map i order my ostwind from my base to the right fuel point, guess what it decide to go though that middle trench!! i was so want to kill that ostwind driver because it try go though a trench and used like 1-2 min just to get through the trench while there is a big road around only take 5sec for him to drive by


Survivability

i don't know how they balance on this but i do hate my vet 3 infantry got wipe by a single rocket or mortar fire.

Buildings

they should add nade or explosives like mortar fire, AT fire and tankfire will give a few sec after shock to infantry who is garrison in the building and able to let infantry storm the building. i mean that is what they do all the time in WW2 right? and maybe give garrison troops a retreat command so they can just run out the building and run for their lives. it will greatly neglect building cover buff

Maps

many maps are in balanced, some give unfair advantage to one side of map especially the new maps.

I'm listening my grievances in hopefully a constructive manner. I've tried to refrain from any balance related things because balance comes over time and we've seen the game get better with each patch in that regard, so kudos to that team.

I have honestly tried to stick with this game. I preordered the collectors edition based on my hundreds of hours of CoH1. I've waited months and months during beta and after official release for things to get better. But I just can't do it anymore. My whole circle of friends I played CoH1 with has stopped playing, and this is the list we came up with.


Command Input Lag

This is completely, 100% inexcusable. I have never had this problem in any other game, definitely not to this extent. I don't know why this hasn't been issue #1 for the relic team, but it needs to be. All the balance in the world doesn't matter if you can't actually play the game.


Pathing

Reverse gear was a nice addition, though as a CoH1 player I still just do the shift+small move backwards thing. All vehicles and retreat suffer from really poor pathing. When issuing a forward command I can have a tank do 3-4 90 degree turns before deciding it can get over a pebble. When issuing a retreat sometimes the models just stand there doing nothing, or need to all bunch up before retreating.

I don't know if this is going for some sort of realism, but I don't think realism should be the focus. I played a few rounds of CoH1 and the vehicles felt so responsive in comparison.


Survivability

I feel that everything dies too slow or too fast in this game. Small arms fire is still completely RNG based making for frustrating and boring early game. Yet full health squad wipes, even with defensive vet bonuses, are way too common from mortars, mines, or lucky tank shots. Retreat bonuses are non existent.


Buildings

Building cover vs small arms fire is completely wrong and has been during beta and release, despite being brought up hundreds of times. A lot of maps have key points overlooked by a building, making early games into a boring camp fest. There are limited ways to counter such as building a mortar or molotovs or getting lucky with RNade insta kill, but that's insufficient.


Maps

There are very few good maps to play on. Most are either too big, either because they're just simply too big or because you're playing 2v2 on a 4-6 map. There is still no community map builder, only a vague mention of one from a producer letter around a month ago.

1+

they need to make mg42's and buildings EXACTLY like they were in coh1
everything would be perfect

About input lag and pathing, I really do feel that they go together in a way. Sometimes it feels like the input lag when it isnt. Its the stupid 6th/4th member of a squad that is far away from the rest of the team. And for some reason, movement seems to require units to be closer togheter, meaning that the far away model needs to get back to the others before the squad moves. Or, this could be an auto cover problem where the units tend to seek cover more than in coh1 or atleast in a diffrent way. This leads to wonky things like:

Units taking long time to get into cover
Units walking out and infront of cover when engaged
Units walking INTO molotovs to seek green cover

Since the game is squadbased it is kind of annoying that the models have so much individual AI or whatnot.


Add input lag to this soup and you got a recipe for losing engagements and or squads. Overall I feel that squad and vehicle control behaved better in coh1.

I agree with the OP.

About input lag and pathing, I really do feel that they go together in a way. Sometimes it feels like the input lag when it isnt. Its the stupid 6th/4th member of a squad that is far away from the rest of the team. And for some reason, movement seems to require units to be closer togheter, meaning that the far away model needs to get back to the others before the squad moves.

This annoys me as well.
A LOT.
Units being unresponsive (without any enemy interference) is a major flaw.

In vCoh if a squad was spaced out too far (for whatever reason) the separated squad members would automatically "sprint" (move faster than normally) in order to catch up.
This lead to capwalking (which I consider an exploit) - but at least the quads responded promptly!

I would much rather deal with bastards using exploits like capwalking or ghostwire then feeling frustrated because my squads decided to make 2 stops when advancing over an open field.

.. and thats just infantry movement dont get me started on viehicles.


On a sidenote:
I still cannot believe ghostwire made it through the beta and several patches despite reports in early beta.

+1

Vehicles choosing roads, unless they are ordered of roads???

I know there was a lot of Vodka on Eastern front, but damn.........

Totally agree with what everyone is saying. I like COH2, but it's not as addictive to play or watch.

Survivability

Too right. There is absolutely no consistency (or at least it's consistently in consistent)

I've lost fire-fights where I should have won them (mathematically and logically) which put me well behind in games and subsequently lost. For example - green cover means F*all in COH2. I've seen squads in Green cover be decimated by another squad in no cover at all and on same health.

In COH1 the M8 is a shock unit and is s real threat to wher early on, but its doesn't completely decimate a squad in about 4 seconds and is very counterable. Not a balance issue- building a t-70 like a KV-8 isn't always an instant win, but anything without a AT weapon has to retreat at first sight. There's no stalling it or getting our of its way. That's OK because the P4 is absolutely devastating too. All medium tanks can crush a lot easier than in COH1. ( I added the last bit to show I'm not bias towards Ost

And don't start me on flames....

Command Input Lag

Dodging Mcocktail/nades, even just getting into cover, I think the Titanic was more responsive. Also, waiting for MG teams to pack away to retreat reminds me of a very tragic circus act.

Personal gripe (links in with Survivability)

My main gripe at the moment is something that infuriates me - tactical units having brute force attributes/capabilities. Perhaps its something we need to get used to, after all this is a new game but it adds to the inconsistency. Allow me explain. Mortor team, AT, MG crew should just be that (sorry if this sounds a little bias but I play both factions...) a support crew is just that and does ONE specific thing. Suppresses the shit out of a squad, provides indirect fire etc. etc. but nothing else. This simple dynamic that was good in coh1. If your MG team got caught out by say stormtroopers or BARs that was that, never in a million years would that 3rd chap with the MP44 in the 3 man crew do any damage against your squad (once in a million right?). The Russian support squads are a joke. If you send a PG squad in there it should be curtains for them as they are AT and AT only (or should be in my opinion). More often than not a AT shell kills one of them and a rifle kills the other leave 2 PGs the take out the rest of them which of course they can't. This isn't a balance issues as there are ways and means to get around this, but its just less fun this way.

Conclusion
COH1 was more addictive and enjoyed because of the dynamics it had, COH2 is a different game, fair enough, you don't have to play it, but nevertheless these are the reasons why not everyone is won over (yet).

I always think of a good thought experiment, would people be complaining about these dynamics if COH2 was released before COH1 (well you know what I mean)? The Answer I think would be YES. People enjoy originality. Which ever dynamic was exposed first would always be the one people favour. Some new things are good like true sight, but again, this got rid of the early T1 recon aspect. Oh well looks like mediums tanks at 11 minutes into the game is the way forward.

My issue with buildings isnt the RNG aspect, its the imbalance in tier0-1 between soviet molotovs and the germans lack of an equivalent hard counter.

On certain maps like semoisky,langreskaya, kholdny, etc you WILL have conscripts rushing every building they can find close to a cutoff or high value point. I'm a very experienced german player, I know how to deal with it - basically ignore it and bait them out. Thats a far cry from being able to throw a molotov and 100% force the enemy out of a strong defensive position for 15 muns. If you aren't planning on countering this soviet meta from the start, you may be cutoff right from the beginning, which has ramifications for the entire rest of the game.

My issue with buildings isnt the RNG aspect, its the imbalance in tier0-1 between soviet molotovs and the germans lack of an equivalent hard counter.

That's not exactly a balance or design issue - its rather an expierence issue.
As you said: Its counterable if you know what you are doing.

I will grudgingly admit that vCoh had a significantly steeper learning curve.
At one point I really thought wher bunkers with a mg 42 squad in it were unassailable




My personal gripe with the current design is that there is no narrative as in vCoh.
The early-, mid-, lategame advantages/disadvantages coupled with doctrines and teching choices allowed for those everchanging tides of battle that made vCoh so enjoyable.

With CoH2 an early game lead (especially annoying if the RNG god has been unkind or your units die because of pathing/input lag) easily transitions into a significant mid/lategame advantage that a solid player will use to win the game.

Also, there is no noticeable escalation on the battlefield:
Infantry > light vehicles > tanks [medium tanks > heavy tanks > doctrinal super heavy tanks]
It often took 30 minutes or more of intense fighting to see the first vCoh turreted tank on the field.
Medium tanks at the 11 minute mark are not an uncommon sight in CoH2.

Agree with reducing the impact of the RNG.

yea, that felt command lag is super annoying.
It was addressed in one patch, making units less responsive to other events and more to user commands. Still I also have that feeling of limited control.
And feeling in control in my view is vital for experiencing good fun as a commander of those troops.
Somehow, it is like moving my mouse over foam material.

Good to hear, more people have this feeling.
And I agree with the idea that it is probably more "felt" than a "real input lag".

The biggest difference to me from vCoH is the lack of influence you have on your manpower. The regular points (the ones that used to be neither fuel nor munitions) don´t offer you +3 manpower any longer. Instead they are just small ammo, fuel points. I liked the fact that you could gain a manpower advantage if you held the map early game in vCoH.

Now you can neither deny your enemy the fuel income (he will usually get enough through the normal points), nor can you increase your manpower. I think this isn´t really rewarding capping the map. The only advantage you have when capping the whole map is more fuel to rush out the tanks earlier. Yet your opponent is still on par in the manpower race and can just build the counters.

The only advantage you have when capping the whole map is more fuel to rush out the tanks earlier. Yet your opponent is still on par in the manpower race and can just build the counters.

Map control means much more than just holding resource points. Controlling the map let's you to pick the positions where the fight goes to your advantage. Also the larger area you control the more time you have to prepare yourself for the push not to mention the vision it gives.

agree with op

Agreed on all points apart fom maps , imo , semois is just a bad map for coh2 , and langreskaya winter is bad as well , i think that coh2 plays well on large and open maps such as moscow outskirts , which for me has provided only enjoyable games so far with both factions

All good points here, I will add some too.

German infantry likes to go in the molotov, even if you dodge it the AI will jump right back in. That only happens if they were in green/yellow cover and you move them away.

If you order MG42 to go out side from a building and there is enemy near by they will immediately unpack before you even press the "retreat" button. I don't want them to unpack but retreat to base, 99% of the time it gets them killed.

In coh1 never lost a squad/s to satchel, but in coh2 there is no escape. Sometimes units tend to freeze for a second before retreat and that is what it takes to get them killed.

Again the AI needs to be fixed... why would the germans bunch up in one place? They will become one "monster" with 8 arms/legs you get the picture. So they get one shotted by t-70, t34, su85.... I didn't notice this happening with soviet infantry. Also tanks need to have set targets, so they target enemy tanks and not infantry why being killed by other tanks.

I really hate the RNG in COH2. Random building collapse is one thing, completely random grenade damage is another.

Consistency is very important in strategy games because a good player shouldn't lose because he got shit rolls on his dices.

Whoever decided that; yeah, the more random the game is the better should be taken out back and taste the luger to the back of the head.