Jagdpanzer IV in Battlegroup

Premise

• The Jagdpanzer IV is an all-but redundant unit after the OKW rework. It has no AI capability whatsoever, and against everything but tank destroyer spam one of the other tanks in the same tier is a better option.

• Special Operations is the strongest OKW commander because of the Command Panther. This is because OKW gets a solid AT fallback if they lose or can't afford to build the SPHQ. For other factions, this fallback is the anti-tank gun.

Both these birds can be killed with one stone.

Proposal

Move the Jagdpanzer IV to Battlegroup and lock it behind two trucks. This fills in these flaws in the reworked OKW design without buffing its strengths.

If you go Battlegroup, going Mechanized or SPHQ will get you the JPIV.

If you go Mechanized, backteching Battlegroup will get you the JPIV.

Consequences

• Mechanized-SPHQ is less screwed if it loses the SPHQ: it can build Battlegroup for the JPIV. It's still a painful 300 MP 40 FU, but not the 300 MP 135 FU that makes people go for the KT instead.

• Battlegroup-SPHQ, the disfavoured build, can afford to place the SPHQ a little more riskily. If they lose it, they lose Obersoldaten, the Panzer IV and the Panther, but they keep the JPIV.

• Backteching Battlegroup before the SPHQ becomes a viable option. If you're willing to delay your SPHQ by 40 FU, you can get the Jagdpanzer IV out 95 FU faster than the Panzer IV. It won't do shit to infantry, but better than Raketenwerfers, right?

It would add nice symmetry to OKW, having a unit unlocked when 1, 2 and 3 trucks are built.

In team games the Jagdpanzer IV is not redundant at all. It's a very good unit supporting a tanky one like the Panther or the King Tiger. Also when it's vetted (800HP + high ROF) it will be a good counter to Allied TD spam. Vetted Jagdpanzer IV with HEAT shells is one of the best things in the game.

Also I do not agree to give OKW another (cheaper) get-out-of-jail card for losing their Schwerer. They are not forced to build it anywhere outside their base. If they build it somewhere they can't defend it, they should be punished for it.

I think the main thing that should be done with OKW once other issues are sorted out like their oppressive, but exploitable early game are sorted out, is to split the Schwerer Panzer HQ in half in terms of deployment - or another value that would work.

What Would Happen

-Remove its flak cannon until the truck is upgraded.
-Allow the truck to be deployed that allows the early deployment of Jagdpanzers and Obersoldaten; one is a reactionary unit, one is a premium AI unit. Neither will dominate like an earlier Panzer IV J.
-The Schwerer can be upgraded to deploy the remainder of its units for the same cost it takes to deploy it currently. Probably lock the Obersoldaten LMG behind this upgrade.

This creates a situation where OKW is not automatically forced into Command Panthers or KTs when the Panzer HQ goes down, open a little more diversity and allows the deployment of earlier Obersoldaten.

There is still the consequence of certain units getting locked out if the truck is destroyed, but it makes it easier to recover and get a better composition out, particularly for the medical truck where it's heavily invested in defensive units with no mobile AT.

So okw can get all vehicles counter before 10 minute mark? Is playing okw still too hard? Is their super cost efficient infantry, strongest light vehicles and best doctrines still not enough? They even get puma in tier2 that can keep medium tanks at bay. Jp4 is not redundant, its beast versus medium armor. And its cheap.

So okw can get all vehicles counter before 10 minute mark? Is playing okw still too hard? Is their super cost efficient infantry, strongest light vehicles and best doctrines still not enough? They even get puma in tier2 that can keep medium tanks at bay. Jp4 is not redundant, its beast versus medium armor. And its cheap.

Why would you ever build a casemate tank destroyer at 10 min? It'd be like rushing an SU-85: it'll lose to a circlestrafing Puma and you'll get overrun by infantry because your 135 FU investment does nothing to them and because you rushed it you don't have any AI vehicles.

Okw stopped reworking and the result we already know... JT is chosen by new players as a 'StarTank', cheap Jpanther, cheap flares that help the arty, etc

I think the main thing that should be done with OKW once other issues are sorted out like their oppressive, but exploitable early game are sorted out, is to split the Schwerer Panzer HQ in half in terms of deployment - or another value that would work.

What would you say are the advantages of that route over this one?

Why would you ever build a casemate tank destroyer at 10 min? It'd be like rushing an SU-85: it'll lose to a circlestrafing Puma and you'll get overrun by infantry because your 135 FU investment does nothing to them and because you rushed it you don't have any AI vehicles.

Because rushing sherman or cromwell or t34 against heavy light vehicles spam of okw is one of the possible "counters". You give jp4 after 2 trucks, you can spam light vehicles all day and if enemy deploys medium tank you go for jp4 because its cheap at only 135 FU and doesnt need shwererHQ. You eliminate any possible weakness of okw and they already have little of them.

Because rushing sherman or cromwell or t34 against heavy light vehicles spam of okw is one of the possible "counters". You give jp4 after 2 trucks, you can spam light vehicles all day and if enemy deploys medium tank you go for jp4 because its cheap at only 135 FU and doesnt need shwererHQ. You eliminate any possible weakness of okw and they already have little of them.

Another two Pumas is cheaper than backteching for the JPIV.

Another two Pumas is cheaper than backteching for the JPIV.

You count 2 pumas versus one medium tank destroyer, healing and access to new units. Yup, jp4 after 2 truck still seems broken as fuck. Maybe give jackson after 2 officers too?

You count 2 pumas versus one medium tank destroyer, healing and access to new units. Yup, jp4 after 2 truck still seems broken as fuck. Maybe give jackson after 2 officers too?

Versus a single medium tank? Yes, two Pumas compare favourably to one JPIV if used intelligently. They can chase it down, smoke themselves, have decent turret rotation and can't be circlestrafed.

If you fixed the Jackson's turret forwards, replaced the M1 anti-tank gun with a Raketenwerfer clone and required both officers upgraded then it'd be a similar proposition.

Jagdpanzer should not come any earlier than any other medium tank in game. It should be like a back up plan if you happen to lose the PanzerHQ, the only tank at least you will be able to build is Jagdpanzer only. Sounds fair and square because of the fact that no other faction has to deploy their base putting it at risk.

Example would be is if I build Mechanized then PanzerHQ. Later game, I lose the PanzerHQ but the only choice vehicle I have in building a tank would be Jagdpanzer which is accessible in the Base HQ. I can not build PanzerIV and Panther whatsoever if I lose the base. It is like a backup plan. Should be available only after you have built the PanzerHQ. This be a great balance. Remove the doctrine with Panther Commander as a fix.

Versus a single medium tank? Yes, two Pumas compare favourably to one JPIV if used intelligently. They can chase it down, smoke themselves, have decent turret rotation and can't be circlestrafed.

I know puma is broken, you dont have to tell me that. Your "fix" to that problem is adding more broken stuff to okw tho...

If you fixed the Jackson's turret forwards, replaced the M1 anti-tank gun with a Raketenwerfer clone and required both officers upgraded then it'd be a similar proposition.

I will take raketen in t0 over m1 any day. Imagine all these luchs rushers getting their light tank rekt by a pair of creeping raks.

As for jackson, you will drasticly improve its armor, fire rate and hp too?

If yes then i welcome these changes.

Jagdpanzer should not come any earlier than any other medium tank in game.

Would it be a problem if it did? It's a casemate tank destroyer. It's not going to be zooming around the map hunting lights like a Puma or an AEC.

You're setting yourself back if you throw down 135 FU on a medium counter if there are no mediums to counter.

Jagdpanzer should not come any earlier than any other medium tank in game. It should be like a back up plan if you happen to lose the PanzerHQ, the only at least you will at building a tank is Jagdpanzer only. Sounds fair and square because of the fact that no other faction has to deploy their base putting it at risk.

You dont have to put it at risk. You can deploy it in base sector. You will end up with by far best base defence across all factions.

Would it be a problem if it did? It's a casemate tank destroyer. It's not going to be zooming around the map hunting lights like a Puma or an AEC.

You're setting yourself back if you throw down 135 FU on a medium counter if there are no mediums to counter.

You still dont get it. You dont have to buy jp4 preemptivly. You can just spam light vehicles, much like any okw player using spec ops and then if enemy deploys medium tank you are just 135 FU short of counter. Much like spec ops but even cheaper and doesnt force you to pick doctrine.

You dont have to put it at risk. You can deploy it in base sector. You will end up with by far best base defence across all factions.

I mean it sounds easy when you say but OKW has a huge set back which is not being able to build fuel and munitions caches. It has be placed to forward and aggressively, (not too far but good enough that you can support it) to protect vital points.

If OKW could build caches, then I would consider more often placing it behind but I can not because I will put myself in a disadvantage. Usually protect cutting points or protecting fuel and ammo. That is what they have to always do. Many are forced to do so in order to progress in the game.

I mean it sounds easy when you say but OKW has a huge set back which is not being able to build fuel and munitions caches. It has be placed to forward and aggressively, (not too far but good enough that you can support it) to protect vital points.

If OKW could build caches, then I would consider more often placing it behind but I can not because I will put myself in a disadvantage. Usually protect cutting points or protecting fuel and ammo. That is what they have to always do. Many are forced to do so in order to progress in the game.

Dont have caches (there is 223 tho which DOUBLES income from fuel point) but can salvage wrecks. In 1v1 you will rarely see anyone build caches and in team games you have ost player to do it.

You still dont get it. You dont have to buy jp4 preemptivly. You can just spam light vehicles, much like any okw player using spec ops and then if enemy deploys medium tank you are just 135 FU short of counter. Much like spec ops but even cheaper and doesnt force you to pick doctrine.

No, you're not. You're circa 600 MP 185 FU short of a JPIV, because you have to build Battlegroup for it. That JPIV then needs to have its flanks defended from both infantry and armour.

That's faster than the current 270 FU to get a JPIV out, but less than the 140 FU two Pumas would cost you.

And that's assuming you don't already have a Puma to counter their light vehicles.