well i think HMG42 is bit over nerf too. i think HMG42 and Maxim should have same suppression.
ya HMG42 have way larger arc than Maxim but also don't have fast turn direction or a nade counter could force Maxim into retreat like what Molotov could do to HMG42(i didn't count FHT or SC because soviet have SC+flamer or sniper too) so i think it even out the less arc disadvantage already not counting Maxim have same arc as HMG42 once enter building and have faster speed to change direction
Please give the MG42 back some bite and other musings
1 Oct 2013, 04:12 AM
#41
Posts: 622
1 Oct 2013, 04:56 AM
#42
Posts: 401
The more games I play, the more I see this change, and unwillingness to revert it, is for team games.
In 1v1, there's more opportunity to flank despite having less units because 1 player can only build so many units.
But in team games, MG spam used to be king in early game, and still is a threat due to numbers. It alters the flow the game even when overcome and the delay can be enough make it a very steep hill to climb.
And you know what, I gotta agree with the change in idea. Not to say that there can't be improvements overall. But I think any solution needs to be very situational.
In 1v1, there's more opportunity to flank despite having less units because 1 player can only build so many units.
But in team games, MG spam used to be king in early game, and still is a threat due to numbers. It alters the flow the game even when overcome and the delay can be enough make it a very steep hill to climb.
And you know what, I gotta agree with the change in idea. Not to say that there can't be improvements overall. But I think any solution needs to be very situational.
1 Oct 2013, 06:17 AM
#43
Posts: 783 | Subs: 3
I donno if you guys get bad dice or what, or maybe they ninja hotfixed it when they fixed the FHQ, but I just watched my last replay and saw seven conscripts in a row get suppressed by the first burst from a 42, even at max range. I do still think the mg needs to be stronger given how easy it is to get/throw mototovs.
That idiot thought he won. In fact, he was wrong. Completely mistaken.No M3 he what things are not，just one moron.
The German oil scarcity, rare tanks cannot fight the Allied torrent. Kill the house to kill the German oil.
Every time lose may feel bad. Probably not the word lose your subconscious. Maybe I win you Not for the first time Maybe you you should go to recall,
The German oil scarcity, rare tanks cannot fight the Allied torrent. Kill the house to kill the German oil.
Every time lose may feel bad. Probably not the word lose your subconscious. Maybe I win you Not for the first time Maybe you you should go to recall,
1 Oct 2013, 06:33 AM
#44
Posts: 525
Molotovs don't work all the time,this is weird...sometimes they burn extremely well and ALMOST kills the crew and sometimes the guy just stays there in flames and doesn't loose any member of the crew
1 Oct 2013, 07:06 AM
#45
Posts: 308
Molotovs don't work all the time,this is weird...sometimes they burn extremely well and ALMOST kills the crew and sometimes the guy just stays there in flames and doesn't loose any member of the crew
Happens to me as well.
1 Oct 2013, 08:41 AM
#46
Posts: 688
I just realised from reading this thread, that the biggest difference between players preferring the german side in vCoH to COH2, is that they have become lazy.
In vCoH as german you couldn't plop an MG and just consider its cone an area sealed to any enemy infantry.
For some absurd reason this is now the expectation from several players, and we see threads like this return time after time.
I'd like to remind everyone how we had similar threads even before the MG was nerfed. For that reason I have to conclude that the real problem does not seem to have anything to do with balance, but with the mindset of some players.
In vCoH as german you couldn't plop an MG and just consider its cone an area sealed to any enemy infantry.
For some absurd reason this is now the expectation from several players, and we see threads like this return time after time.
I'd like to remind everyone how we had similar threads even before the MG was nerfed. For that reason I have to conclude that the real problem does not seem to have anything to do with balance, but with the mindset of some players.
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
1 Oct 2013, 09:07 AM
#47
Posts: 66
I just realised from reading this thread, that the biggest difference between players preferring the german side in vCoH to COH2, is that they have become lazy.
In vCoH as german you couldn't plop an MG and just consider its cone an area sealed to any enemy infantry.
For some absurd reason this is now the expectation from several players, and we see threads like this return time after time.
I'd like to remind everyone how we had similar threads even before the MG was nerfed. For that reason I have to conclude that the real problem does not seem to have anything to do with balance, but with the mindset of some players.
Is it too much to expect from MG42 to stop one(!), conscript(!) unit charging frontally, from throwing a molotov and forcing MG to retreat? Is it right from design perspective to have a blob of 3-4 closely bunched-up units charge a properly faced MG42 to point blank range without getting even suppressed?
If you speak about "mindset" - what mindset can one have to justify such situations?
1 Oct 2013, 09:35 AM
#48
Posts: 525
Is it too much to expect from MG42 to stop one(!), conscript(!) unit charging frontally, from throwing a molotov and forcing MG to retreat? Is it right from design perspective to have a blob of 3-4 closely bunched-up units charge a properly faced MG42 to point blank range without getting even suppressed?
If you speak about "mindset" - what mindset can one have to justify such situations?
I can't understand you,I always have to sacrifice one squad to flank with another...you want 360 degree firing arc?
1 Oct 2013, 10:12 AM
#49
Posts: 182
I just realised from reading this thread, that the biggest difference between players preferring the german side in vCoH to COH2, is that they have become lazy.
In vCoH as german you couldn't plop an MG and just consider its cone an area sealed to any enemy infantry.
For some absurd reason this is now the expectation from several players, and we see threads like this return time after time.
I'd like to remind everyone how we had similar threads even before the MG was nerfed. For that reason I have to conclude that the real problem does not seem to have anything to do with balance, but with the mindset of some players.
This x1000. It's a support weapon, support it and it will treat you right. As it stands now with the hotfix it suppresses pretty damn well, give it some extra line of sight with a supporting gren so it can take advantage of its full firing distance and you wont be getting flanked as easily. Also, try pointing it directly at a flank instead of relying on its arc to hit flanking units while trying to cover multiple approaches. Suppress one unit, pack up MG, redploy where there are flanking enemies, use Grens to get rid of the suppressed squad. I think a lot of newer players don't understand the Mg was pretty broken (if you want to compare it to Vcoh mechanics) for the first 2 months, so you guys have been a little spoiled in terms of easy mode gameplay.
1 Oct 2013, 11:34 AM
#50
Posts: 829
Is it too much to expect from MG42 to stop one(!), conscript(!) unit charging frontally, from throwing a molotov and forcing MG to retreat? Is it right from design perspective to have a blob of 3-4 closely bunched-up units charge a properly faced MG42 to point blank range without getting even suppressed?
If you speak about "mindset" - what mindset can one have to justify such situations?
That is absolutely right. It shouldn't happen.
And it doesn't happen. I think you might be imagining things while in the angry state of mind.
I have never had conscript squad come head on and throw molotov on my MG42 without getting suppressed and unable to throw molotov.
Nor did I ever managed to walk up frontally towards mg42 with cons.
I can use line of sight to come as close as I get, and then Oorah my way on the side. BUT ONLY if cons will be fired upon for short burst and then are out of fire arc.
Having 5 con units swarm your mg42? Are you being funny? Did you maybe want some of the models to build 88 flak cannon as well, so you don't have to worry about those annoying vehicles?
1 Oct 2013, 12:41 PM
#51
Posts: 688
To be honest it CAN happen on a freak occasion taht a single conscript makes it without suppression and without hooray.
Just as I recently had one of the frequently mentioned single conscripts walk right into the cone (inadvertedly) of an MG. It was suppressed at burst 2 and lost one man. At burst 3 all the remaining 5 men died while having an exclamationmark over their heads.
I was shocked, but eventually had to realise that s*** just happens. And it's actually part of the excitement in the game.
Just as I recently had one of the frequently mentioned single conscripts walk right into the cone (inadvertedly) of an MG. It was suppressed at burst 2 and lost one man. At burst 3 all the remaining 5 men died while having an exclamationmark over their heads.
I was shocked, but eventually had to realise that s*** just happens. And it's actually part of the excitement in the game.
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
1 Oct 2013, 17:19 PM
#52
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
The problem with the MG is that its useless by itself.
Case and point: I was playing against a guy yesterday in a 1v1 who was completely ignoring a conscript unit. The conscript unit ran directly in front of my MG42 which sprayed it down twice. He finally got pinned by the third burst (at which point he finally started paying attention to his squad). However, by that point he was close enough to continue crawling a few more feet, toss a molotov, and force a retreat of my MG.
I think the MG42 was WAY over nerfed. I think the arch fix was fine, but the suppression the MG42 causes is way too nerfed. Squads running through red cover should be pinned by the second burst at the latest.
As far as the whole d*ck swinging contest goes. I think what Dave was trying to say is that when people who have been playing company of heroes probably as long as you've been alive, have constructive criticism about the game, it should be respected or at least considered.
RoMDarealslimshadY was the alias I went by on coh1. I was top 5 with both vCoH armies on the LOL Ladder. While I wasn't the best player ever, I certainly won WAY more than I lost vs top competition. While I haven't put nearly as much effort into coh2 (because it's LOL broken right now), if you haven't heard of me, chances are you didn't play coh1 very long (if at all).
/end d*ck swinging competition and resume constructive criticism about the game.
As the top 10 Soviet 1v1 player I think my input will be useful in this debate on the mg42. Before I start though I'd like to backup fully what Shady has said in this post and also give credit where credit is due, he is the best Wehrmacht player in vcoh, no doubt about that, so anyone who hasn't heard of him or doubts his opinions should respect him now.
So, as Shady has previously stated the mg42 has been slightly overnerfed imo, mostly due to the fact that suppression takes longer then is needed now, especially on obvious red cover incidents. I will admit though once the mg42 starts gaining vet, especially at vet 2 it's suppression is increased tenfold and it becomes a very powerful unit in the game, but the problem is keeping it alive to that point. I recommend improving the suppression ability slightly, due in part to mgs now being flankable and taking more damage, that way it doesn't take over 5 seconds to suppress a conscript squad in red cover.
1 Oct 2013, 22:49 PM
#53
Posts: 194
The problem I think relates to cover, even extremely partial cover like a random bush or log or, later game, misc craters that they happen to be passing through. I only ever see conscripts walking through MG fire without a care in the world when this is true. Even if they just dip into it for a second, it seems to grant them a decent suppression resistance.
2 Oct 2013, 01:27 AM
#54
Posts: 604
Well, the 0.5 suppression multiplier against units in light cover may be connected to it, true. However, I don't really know how that could be fixed without making light cover pretty useless against the MG42.
Maybe increase the suppression multiplier (e.g. to 0.75) of the HMGs but also reduce the accuracy modifier vs. light cover (e.g. from 0.5 to 0.3). This could "simulate" the behaviour of MG suppression fire vs. units they can't really see or reliably hit (e.g. between shrubbery or in craters). This way units in light cover could also tank the damage longer, allowing for other squads to flank.
It probably wouldn't be perfect but might do the trick... yellow cover is basically everywhere in this game.
Maybe increase the suppression multiplier (e.g. to 0.75) of the HMGs but also reduce the accuracy modifier vs. light cover (e.g. from 0.5 to 0.3). This could "simulate" the behaviour of MG suppression fire vs. units they can't really see or reliably hit (e.g. between shrubbery or in craters). This way units in light cover could also tank the damage longer, allowing for other squads to flank.
It probably wouldn't be perfect but might do the trick... yellow cover is basically everywhere in this game.
2 Oct 2013, 05:08 AM
#55
3 
Posts: 368
especially at vet 2 it's suppression is increased tenfold and it becomes a very powerful unit in the game
I'm curious - what happens at vet2? I thought they only got a healthbuff.
/Uninstalled
2 Oct 2013, 05:27 AM
#56
Posts: 622
Veterancy1:light_team_weapons_german_vet1_mp
Xp needed 480
Veterancy2:
armor_modifier ["1.25", ""]
accuracy_weapon_modifier ["1.78", "hardpoint_01"]
Xp needed 960
Veterancy3:
armor_modifier ["1.8", ""]
Xp needed 1920
hmm i don't see suppression anywhere just accuracy and armor
Xp needed 480
Veterancy2:
armor_modifier ["1.25", ""]
accuracy_weapon_modifier ["1.78", "hardpoint_01"]
Xp needed 960
Veterancy3:
armor_modifier ["1.8", ""]
Xp needed 1920
hmm i don't see suppression anywhere just accuracy and armor
2 Oct 2013, 08:11 AM
#57
Posts: 120
My opinion is the M42 is slightly over-nerft and needs a very little buf in suppresion. But not too much! (like it was before it was such a pain in the ass)
And I do agree that when in red cover the suppression must have a multiplier. And in green cover and long range suppression must be impossible. Like this cover is more and more important like it should.
And I do agree that when in red cover the suppression must have a multiplier. And in green cover and long range suppression must be impossible. Like this cover is more and more important like it should.
 | Playercard of Wolverine3141 | |||||||||||||||||||
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2 Oct 2013, 08:22 AM
#58
Posts: 688
The problem I think relates to cover, even extremely partial cover like a random bush or log or, later game, misc craters that they happen to be passing through. I only ever see conscripts walking through MG fire without a care in the world when this is true. Even if they just dip into it for a second, it seems to grant them a decent suppression resistance.
Since I see my units get supressed in light cover too, I'm not convinced that this is a problem.
However, if it is in fact that, I suppose it could somehow be fixed by decreasing the value of cover if the unit is moving?
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
2 Oct 2013, 14:46 PM
#59
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
I'm curious - what happens at vet2? I thought they only got a healthbuff.
They also receive a damage and suppression buff.
2 Oct 2013, 15:46 PM
#60
Posts: 476
Veterancy1:light_team_weapons_german_vet1_mp
Xp needed 480
Veterancy2:
armor_modifier ["1.25", ""]
accuracy_weapon_modifier ["1.78", "hardpoint_01"]
Xp needed 960
Veterancy3:
armor_modifier ["1.8", ""]
Xp needed 1920
hmm i don't see suppression anywhere just accuracy and armor
More accuracy --> more hits --> more surpression.
More accuracy --> more hits --> more damage.
I play mostly 1v1 and my post are with 1v1 in mind.
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