T34/85

T34/85 didn't get changed when the T34/76 got a 50% damage and a small penetration buff. At the time T34/85s weren't too unpopular because the SU-85 was OP enough that someone supplementing one with the other wouldn't really notice. Hence they massively underperform against everything compared to the T34/76 now.

Hence, they need a buff. Rate of fire seems like the most sensible one.

+1 (x1000)

T34/85 didn't get changed when the T34/76 got a 50% damage and a small penetration buff. At the time T34/85s weren't too unpopular because the SU-85 was OP enough that someone supplementing one with the other wouldn't really notice. Hence they massively underperform against everything compared to the T34/76 now.

Hence, they need a buff. Rate of fire seems like the most sensible one.

ROF will increase the t34's already well rounded anti-infantry ability, especially combined with speed and lolcrushing of soldiers. Any ROF or damage increase needs to come with a nerfed scatter to mitigate its effects on 4 man german infantry squads.

What you're forgetting is that t34/85s dont always come 45 minutes into a game when you are facing nothing but panthers and 3 p4s. A build that requires no teching or other buildings whatsoever and relies on all the doctrinal soviet callins (guards, 120s, etc which are all great units) can get these on the field 15 mins in about the same time as an su85 build or a couple normal t34s. They appear instantly, ram whatever one tank you had on the field, get repaired quickly by a couple pios and get back to work. If you have at least 1 fuel point you can continue to back tech or get another 2 called in fairly quickly if you havent already won

If you are expecting t34's to be double panther callins without any teching or base building required, dream on

ROF will increase the t34's already well rounded anti-infantry ability, especially combined with speed and lolcrushing of soldiers. Any ROF or damage increase needs to come with a nerfed scatter to mitigate its effects on 4 man german infantry squads.

What you're forgetting is that t34/85s dont always come 45 minutes into a game when you are facing nothing but panthers and 3 p4s. A build that requires no teching or other buildings whatsoever and relies on all the doctrinal soviet callins (guards, 120s, etc which are all great units) can get these on the field 15 mins in about the same time as an su85 build or a couple normal t34s. They appear instantly, ram whatever one tank you had on the field, get repaired quickly by a couple pios and get back to work. If you have at least 1 fuel point you can continue to back tech or get another 2 called in fairly quickly if you havent already won

If you are expecting t34's to be double panther callins without any teching or base building required, dream on

well not double panthers double p4 maybe....

on a side note, i think they are fine. they could use a price redution though. i have never had problems with their performance, but i do have problems with their price. but then its either one of the 2 its either price reduction or stat boost.

on a side note, i think they are fine. they could use a price redution though. i have never had problems with their performance, but i do have problems with their price. but then its either one of the 2 its either price reduction or stat boost.

+1

T-34s advantage was quantity not quality. I think a single call in for 360mp 110 fuel would be nice.

well not double panthers double p4 maybe....

on a side note, i think they are fine. they could use a price redution though. i have never had problems with their performance, but i do have problems with their price. but then its either one of the 2 its either price reduction or stat boost.

the price reduction I do not support at all without changing the requirement to a t3 building and 4 cps.

Otherwise you are looking at roughly similar fuel and mp costs without buildings or tech costs which is imba as hell

the soviets have enough armor options that they dont need to have an equivalent to a late war p4 that builds instantly in a pair with RAM


ps. take ram off of the t34/85

The problem that that people keep forgetting is that they have the same cost of two t34-76's plus tech in fuel while being 115 mp cheaper then 2 t34-76's plus tech all the while with out the build time. It is entirely possible to get them out before your opponent can even get two tanks himself or catch him with one ostwind and a p4.

If you add mark target to the equation they fire 2x as fast and they can also be used with guards. The other commander that has them has radio intercept allowing you to know what your opponent is building and reach accordingly.

So they work great if you want to skip tiers and they work well with t4 after an su-85 because they are cheaper then back teching to t-34's. The only thing they currently don't work well with is t3 becuase you may as well just get more t34-76's.

When they hit the field they have tons of shock value. You just went form having maybe 1 or no tanks to suddenly having two. This gives you two t34-85's in about the same time you could have had two t34-76's (most of the time some times you can have more out) without the risk of losing one before getting the other.

Making them like two p4s would be ridiculously overpowered, you have to factor in the cost of not having to build tech with them. Two p4's plus tech cost (just inculding the cost battle phase 2 and the building not all tech costs for germans) 1000 mp 290 fuel compared to the 720 mp 260 fuel cost of T34-85's

here is the math if you add mark target

PZIV(320MP/115FU), T34/76(280MP/85FU), PZIV(1000MP/290FU for 2 plus tech) T-34/85(720MP/260FU,4CP for pack of 2)

PZIV finishing off a T-34/85: (800/160)*5.825/(88.7097%)=32.8318sec

PZIV finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*5.825/(95.6522%)=24.3591sec

T-34/85 finishing off a PZIV: (640/160)*8.575/(68.75%)=49.8909sec

T-34/85 finishing off a PZIV plus Mark Target: (640/160)*4.2875/(68.75%)=24.9454sec

T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV: (640/120)*4.875/(50%)=52sec

As you can clearly see with mark target you can easily beat one of the p4s then ram the other and take it out your 2nd 85, add in guards and you have pretty good tank. The tank doesn't live in a vacuum and it doesn't come by itself your always going to be getting them in pairs. If you just expect to beat equal number of p4's with them every time then your using them wrong.

Now can the argument be made that it is currently simply better just to get t3 first and 2 t34-76's instead of the 85's, sure. But aside from that the tank is pretty good in every other situation you would want it in if you don't go t3 first.

Very well said Con

People are ignoring the main reason why I made this thread, it was for it to be reduced to a single tank call in and the rate of fire reduced.

t34s are overpowered and need nerf and su 85 needs buff

I wonder how Germans would react to see Panzer 4 as doctrinal units worth 720 mp and 230 fuel

I wonder how Germans would react to see Panzer 4 as doctrinal units worth 720 mp and 230 fuel

Wrong comparison.

It would have to be an upgraded version of PIV, not PIV itself.
Since the doctrinal unit is T34/85, not T34 itself.

See?

I wonder how Germans would react to see Panzer 4 as doctrinal units worth 720 mp and 230 fuel

pretending that soviets dont have equally viable tanks to use instead of callins

People are ignoring the main reason why I made this thread, it was for it to be reduced to a single tank call in and the rate of fire reduced.

Interesting, only making it one and reducing it's rate of fire. I wonder if that would cause problems though. I mean if you increase it too much it could, particularly with mark target become something that could take on stugs, which would be the counter to the unit from a non doctrinal stand point.

By making it only one you make it pretty easy to get with t4 just build one su-85 then get the one t34-85 you could probably even throw in a katuashya in there as well.

It would mesh better with t3 at that point becuase you could just get one 76 and then get the 85 after but still would just be better to get another 76 I think.

I think making it just a one tank call-in and increasing rate of fire would cause way too many problems. The equivalent tank that is doctrinal is the kv-1 and that thing has a high mp cost to balance it out a bit and that thing is already a little borderline op.

Add in mark target with the 85 and I think it would be too good of a tank with those buffs.

Making it just one tank by itself doesn't really do anything but cause problems because even if it is just one it is still locked by it's 4 cp cost, so at that point your just giving it a boost if you use it after you have picked t4 or t3.

Germans don't have any doctrinal tanks that can deal with it till 5 cps and at the end of the day it needs to be balanced against stugs most of all not p4's (since this is German t3's only dedicated anti tank)

Interesting, only making it one and reducing it's rate of fire. I wonder if that would cause problems though. I mean if you increase it too much it could, particularly with mark target become something that could take on stugs, which would be the counter to the unit from a non doctrinal stand point.

By making it only one you make it pretty easy to get with t4 just build one su-85 then get the one t34-85 you could probably even throw in a katuashya in there as well.

It would mesh better with t3 at that point becuase you could just get one 76 and then get the 85 after but still would just be better to get another 76 I think.

I think making it just a one tank call-in and increasing rate of fire would cause way too many problems. The equivalent tank that is doctrinal is the kv-1 and that thing has a high mp cost to balance it out a bit and that thing is already a little borderline op.

Add in mark target with the 85 and I think it would be too good of a tank with those buffs.

Making it just one tank by itself doesn't really do anything but cause problems because even if it is just one it is still locked by it's 4 cp cost, so at that point your just giving it a boost if you use it after you have picked t4 or t3.

Germans don't have any doctrinal tanks that can deal with it till 5 cps and at the end of the day it needs to be balanced against stugs most of all not p4's (since this is German t3's only dedicated anti tank)

I don't understand what you are trying to say, have you used the t34/85? It is not worth the price tage of 720mp and 260 fuel, the fact that it is even a doctrinal tank in the first place is ridiculous. The changes i proposed will not brake the game, I guess you think the kv8 is broken to since it only cost 130 fuel and 4cps. If you dont have a counter for the t34/85 by the time it comes its not the game fault, it is yours. Mark target doesn't justify the price or the performance of the tanks and it is a ridiculous accusation to say that i have to use a doctrinal ability to get the full ability out a a overpriced mediocre tank.

The teching requirements really cut both ways for the T-34/85s. The CP cost can delay them depending on how bloody the early game is, which means you can't reliably time them very well and the wait for 260 fuel means you're both spending 85 fuel of time without an impact tank. Furthermore, after getting 2 T-34s, you get a third 85 fuel later and a fourth 85 fuel after that. Only around the time of the fifth T34 (assuming that you lost no map control on account of saving up 260 more fuel) would you get another pair of 85s. The wait for both the first and second groups of T34/85s is absolutely huge in terms of leaving something for the Ostheer to exploit.

In short, because it's a double call-in, I don't think the teching cost is so important as to justify making them deliberately underperform.

Con, I feel StuGs are really underperforming against most things right now until they get veterancy. Not really sure balancing against them is a great idea.

Right now the only time I see the T-34/85 really perform is alongside the SU-85. Alone I never see them work out, even for good players, and with Tier 3 there's absolutely no reason to get them ever.

Edit: for the record, for flavour purposes, I'd rather it stayed a double call-in and I don't really care about the historical arguments. I'd like it to be the same cost but have the rate of fire buffed and maybe the armour buffed a tad so as to make it worth the wait and perform noticeably better against vehicles than a T-34/76 (if increasing the scatter is desirable, then fine). Right now it hardly performs differently apart from the bigger waiting time and the low reload speed making its performance against Tier 3 and Tier 4 very reliant on not getting a few unlucky shots.

If you look at the time the 85 can come in the game it is either coming after you have gotten tanks or instead of getting tanks. As a tank being used with t3 it is currently worthless, because it cost more and gives you little over what you already have.

If you go t4 you have su-85 and it works great with that tank that combo can be used to take on both the tiger and elephant and any other tanks the german player may build.

The only other use is if you skip t3 and t4 altogether. If you have done this you will have guards and/or at guns at that time.

So what use are you trying to buff? T3 use of the tank? Tier less use? It works fine with t4 so no need to buff it there. T3 use has to be balanced vs. stug because Germans don't have any at tanks at 4 cps.

If it beats the stug and it beats a p4 what is german supposed to counter it with if they go t3?

Now just lowering it to just one call-in removes the shock value somewhat and you still have the same tank you had before and it doesn't help with t3 or tier less play. If you increase reload rate it probably needs to go up in cost. If you make it an at tank and nerf it's ai to p4 level then it is less effective with t4 which needs ai/at tanks to complement the su-85, something that can deal with infantry better but can help deal with an elepahnt when that comes out that is the t34-85.

If your looking for a call-in tank that is good at to go with t3 then get the kv-1 it is great at tank, crushes p4s really well and is pretty good vs. stugs aswell.

As for people saying stugs are underpowered. I disagree I played a game today where I had a stug take on 2 t-34's killed the one and almost killed the other before the t-34 got away, so stugs are more then powerful enough.

The k-v8 is balanced because it can be countered by tanks and is an ai tank. Get a stug and your kv-8 problems are solved.

So the real question is what role should the t34-85 have? I think as a complement to t4 it is a great tank. The doctrines it is in also allow you to skip tiers if you want, you can say that isn't viable but that is more of a question of soviets not being able to deal with ostwinds with mp based at very well.

But is is doable and if you place mines get proper amount of at and make it to the 85's you have a pretty good shock units that can be used to deal with all of t3 and only has serious problems with t4 and 5cp anti tank german doctrinal tanks.

Most times I have seen the 85 used out side of t4 the player tries to force a fight with the german tanks when in many ways it is best to use them in a skirmish capacity since both docs that have them also have tank repair in them.

As for using them after the first call-in that is called spam, shouldn't the goal be to have a combined arms army, not spam one unit? 2 should be more then enough if you pair them with another tank, like the is2 in the one doc they come in and the su-85 in tier 4, combine that with mp based at and you have a pretty beastly army as soviets capable of taking on anything the german army throws at you if handled properly.

And yes I have used them before. By themselves they aren't that great of a tank (but neither is the 76), but combined with the rest of the soviet army they complement them pretty well.

Both T34-85s and Stugs are a bit underpowered right now. But common guys, let's not go overboard with the buffs.

All I am asking for the very least if relic don't won't to change the stats is for it to be reverted to a single tank call-in, but for some reason people are whining that it will break the game. This would put it on 360mp and 130 fuel and 4cps, it is more expansive than a p4 and stug yet it can not take out ether alone without proper support. Please explain how this is game braking?

pretending that soviets dont have equally viable tanks to use instead of callins

Are you actually saying T34 and Panzer 4 are "equal"???