Convince me that it's a bad idea with a 1 sniper limit

Could anyone who just came in here to flame and slag of each others ranks please jump over to the discussion forum on steam which seem to have been made for this very purpose? Otherwise I'll have to ask the moderaters nicely to go in hard on invising anything that is not on topic.

"I hear and obey. Job's done. Zug zug."

Some wisdom from the Panzer of the lake.



Pot calls kettle black. If you constantly say stupid things in order to make fun of things you consider stupid, it doesn't take long enough for others to perceive you in the same way.


Stay on topic before other mods have to step up in this thread again.

"I hear and obey. Job's done. Zug zug."

Some wisdom from the Panzer of the lake.



Pot calls kettle black. If you constantly say stupid things in order to make fun of things you consider stupid, it doesn't take long enough for others to perceive you in the same way.


Stay on topic before other mods have to step up in this thread again.

Thank you oh wise lake Panzer!

Sniper shots costing muni is a terrific idea...Generally in COH2 muni abilities are really too spammable, there aren't enough tough choices in COH2, making every game very linear. Sure, if you overspam mines you may not have your late-game offmap but no one keeps spamming mines once the mine detector arrives. There just aren't enough hard trade-offs, ie., when have you ever really not been able to get an LMG and faust the M3 as Ostheer unless you were losing completely....

Can I ask for a one Churchill limit?

Nope, you can stay on topic if you please

Snipers already do have a setup time, don't they? Though it doesn't have the loading bar like a flaktrak.

I view introducing aritificial limits on unit count as a bad taste. It is a failure on design side.

There should be natural reasons not to have duplicate unit types and not to have multiple squishy units as a sniper. And in sniper case I think reasons are present in game.

Sniper is a unit that requires a lot of babysitting, screening and support. If player invested 720 MP into sniper units, he should not have enough forces for screening against LV and will generally be overwhelmed by enemy infantry force unless his opponent has failed to adapt and continued building team weapons.

Therefore in my opinion introducing limit on snipers is not needed and it is probably just an L2P issue.



I also think it was a mistake to make Soviet sniper 1 man.
It goes against CoH series cornerstones - unit preservation and veterancy.

They had to go completely opposite and make all snipers 82 hp 2-man squads, increase recieved accuracy and increase reinforcement cost AND TIME.

This way countersniping would be still viable, but recieving side won't instantly lose their MP investment together with accumulated veterancy.
Forcing sniper away with LV and killing 1 model would be a good result too.

I wonder, why we got rid of precision shots, demo charges, restricted mines to 2 model kill max in order to reduce squad wipes, but then did U-turn and decided that wiping through countersniping is ok.

Someone didn't learned CoH1 lesson.

I consider introducing aritificial limits on unit count as a bad taste. It is a failure on design side.

There should be natural reasons not to have duplicate unit types and not to have multiple squishy units as a sniper. And in sniper case I think reasons are present in game.

Sniper is a unit that requires a lot of babysitting, screening and support. If player invested 720 MP into sniper units, he should not have enough forces for screening against LV and will generally be overwhelmed by enemy infantry force unless his opponent has failed to adapt and continued building team weapons.

Therefore in my opinion introducing limit on snipers is not needed and it is probably just a L2P issue.



I also think it was a mistake to make Soviet sniper 1 man.
It goes against CoH series cornerstones - unit preservation and veterancy.

They had to go completely opposite and make all snipers 82 hp 2-man squads, increase recieved accuracy and increase reinforcement cost AND TIME.

This way countersniping would be still viable, but recieving side won't instantly lose their MP investment together with accumulated veterancy.
Forcing sniper away with LV and killing 1 model would be a good result too.

I wonder, why we got rid of precision shots, demo charges, restricted mines to 2 model kill max in order to reduce squad wipes, but then did U-turn and decided that wiping through countersniping is ok.

Someone didn't learned CoH1 lesson.

I respectfully disagree with at least some of your points (surprisingly I know ) .

Yes snipers need babysitting at the time when light vehicles reign supreme, but outside that timeslot they are actually somewhat safe and take a lot of effort, stealth and planning for the opponent to kill. Conversely, going double sniper and a-moving them around in groups does not really take much more effort than moving one sniper but has twice the impact and will force 4-man squads to immediately retreat or be wiped.

I really see no point of making the snipers two man again as that would make them even less vulnerable to one of their best counters, the counter-snipe, and mean that they would be an even more low effort to maintain for most of the match.

I respectfully disagree with at least some of your points (surprisingly I know ) .

Yes snipers need babysitting at the time when light vehicles reign supreme, but outside that timeslot they are actually somewhat safe and take a lot of effort, stealth and planning for the opponent to kill. Conversely, going double sniper and a-moving them around in groups does not really take much more effort than moving one sniper but has twice the impact and will force 4-man squads to immediately retreat or be wiped.

I really see no point of making the snipers two man again as that would make them even less vulnerable to one of their best counters, the counter-snipe, and mean that they would be an even more low effort to maintain for most of the match.

All other points aside, I don't think its a good design then most reliable counter to specific unit is that exact same specific unit from another faction.

I would say that hard caps on the number of units you may have on a field for a stock unit is not a very good idea.

I support Lago's Sniper Set-up time suggestion.

I respectfully disagree with at least some of your points (surprisingly I know ) .

Yes snipers need babysitting at the time when light vehicles reign supreme, but outside that timeslot they are actually somewhat safe and take a lot of effort, stealth and planning for the opponent to kill.

That's the point of 2-man! You don't need to wipe him if he has high recieving accuracy and two models that cost slightly more than now and take slightly longer time to reinforce. You kill one model. You inflicted relatively same amount of bleed on him, you forced him away. He has his 360 MP sitting on the base for some time.

Isn't this a better solution for both sides?

Conversely, going double sniper and a-moving them around in groups does not really take much more effort than moving one sniper but has twice the impact and will force 4-man squads to immediately retreat or be wiped.

Yes, if opponent concentrates his investments of 720 MP in one place against one of your 240 MP squads he will force you to retreat immediately, no matter what type of units that would be. It could be 3 Conscripts squad - result would be the same.

The difference is 2 Snipers have much less capping power than 3 Conscripts.
Yes you may do more MP bleed on opponent with 2 Snipers, but in the end you will crumble because at some point of game opponent will accumulate enough infantry to consistently force your snipers to retreat AND will get his LV earlier than you because of superior capping power.

I really see no point of making the snipers two man again as that would make them even less vulnerable to one of their best counters, the counter-snipe, and mean that they would be an even more low effort to maintain for most of the match.

Coutersnipe still counters them, it just doesn't wipe them. Which is good for the game.

Mortars have even lower effort to maintain, yet they have more wipe potential and serve as the same anti-cover/garrison/HMG tool too.
Should they make mortar squads 2-men, so mortars could "countersnipe" each other?

Should they bring back old demo, so CEs could "countersnipe" grens and volks? By the way demo "countersnipes" for 90MU and if it wipes squad it is usually only 240-260 MP of casualties unlike if you kill 360 MP sniper with your sniper "for free".

Can I have some consistency?

That's the point of 2-man! You don't need to wipe him if he has high recieving accuracy and two models that cost slightly more than now and take slightly longer time to reinforce. You kill one model. You inflicted relatively same amount of bleed on him, you forced him away. He has his 360 MP sitting on the base for some time.

Isn't this a better solution for both sides?

I understand your arguments, but I think that snipers should maintain the role as high risk / high reward and this might be difficult to maintain with a two man squad as we saw with the old soviet sniper. But if you mean that their health should be identical to the one man, but just split on two then I suppose it wouldn't be too bad.

Yes, if opponent concentrates his investments of 720 MP in one place against one of your 240 MP squads he will force you to retreat immediately, no matter what type of units that would be. It could be 3 Conscripts squad - result would be the same.

The difference is 2 Snipers have much less capping power than 3 Conscripts.
Yes you may do more MP bleed on opponent with 2 Snipers, but in the end you will crumble because at some point of game opponent will accumulate enough infantry to consistently force your snipers to retreat AND will get his LV earlier than you because of superior capping power.

This is not really true. A gren squad in a building can hold off for quite a while against three cons and often soft retreat to safety. No such thing agiainst double snipers - it's retreat immediately or get wiped in the next volley.

Coutersnipe still counters them, it just doesn't wipe them. Which is good for the game.

Mortars have even lower effort to maintain, yet they have more wipe potential and serve as the same anti-cover/garrison/HMG tool too.
Should they make mortar squads 2-men, so mortars could "countersnipe" each other?

Should they bring back old demo, so CEs could "countersnipe" grens and volks? By the way demo "countersnipes" for 90MU and if it wipes squad it is usually only 240-260 MP of casualties unlike if you kill 360 MP sniper with your sniper "for free".

Can I have some consistency?

I accept your countersnipe argument. It's reasonable considering two factions don't have snipers. The mortar is not really comparable though as it will only wipe very depleted squads and in spite of recent buffs still takes a while to flush out.

I really don't understand what the pre-patch demo charge has to do with anything in this debate. and the current demo is visible so it has to be used really cleaverly and situationally to pull out. This seems very much like an apples and oranges comparison.

[...]

I really don't understand what the pre-patch demo charge has to do with anything in this debate. and the current demo is visible so it has to be used really cleaverly and situationally to pull out. This seems very much like an apples and oranges comparison.

I compared old demo with 1-man snipers feature because both these things allow you to delete enemy squad. Yet in one case it is bad to wipe squad and they did a nerf, but in other case it is good and they removed 2nd man for Soviet Sniper Team. Therefore I complained about consistency in removing/nerfing 1-click wiping tools.



And another thing I'd like to mention -

I saw some Wehrmacht vs Brits games in previous patches where snipers on both sides just sat on hold fire and did almost nothing. This is the price for high risk/high reward - the boring idle metagame.

In Wehrmacht vs Soviets matchup Wehr Sniper starts underpowered compared to Soviet one, but if player manages to babysit him and gain vet so it gets incendiary - you get opposite situation. There was at least interesting dynamic between sniper play - Wehr tries to avoid Soviet and get bits of vet.

Now if both players decide to get a Sniper it is same idle play as in Brits matchup.

I compared old demo with 1-man snipers feature because both these things allow you to delete enemy squad. Yet in one case it is bad to wipe squad and they did a nerf, but in other case it is good and they removed 2nd man for Soviet Sniper Team. Therefore I complained about consistency in removing/nerfing 1-click wiping tools.



And another thing I'd like to mention -

I saw some Wehrmacht vs Brits games in previous patches where snipers on both sides just sat on hold fire and did almost nothing. This is the price for high risk/high reward - the boring idle metagame.

In Wehrmacht vs Soviets matchup Wehr Sniper starts underpowered compared to Soviet one, but if player manages to babysit him and gain vet so it gets incendiary - you get opposite situation. There was at least interesting dynamic between sniper play - Wehr tries to avoid Soviet and get bits of vet.

Now if both players decide to get a Sniper it is same idle play as in Brits matchup.

I don't think this is a valid comparison at all. The 2 man soviet sniper was insanely durable and even a deep dive into the enemy base with a suicide 222 would pretty much be a coin toss on whether or not you wiped it. And the soviet 2 man squad was the only sniper of the tree that was two men, so I don't agree with that reasoning.

While opinions can be split on the concept of countersniping, I don't find it boring at all that people were sneaking around with hold fire. In fact that shows true skill and patience, because it's an expensive unit to keep idle so therefore people will often use it when they feel safe. and not much would change in this two man dynamic, except the sniper would just be even more cancer to deal with because the most reliable counter no longer existed.

The problems with the best counter to the sniper being another sniper are:

• It doesn't work against a more skilled sniper player, who'll countersnipe your countersniper.
  
• It forces you into sniper play. A lot of players loathe both using and fighting snipers.
  
• USF and OKW don't get snipers.

If removing countersniping would turn snipers into a nightmare then what that says to me is the other counterplays to sniper use are inadequate.

It'd be like the only viable counter to a medium tank being another medium tank with superior micro.



What's needed is a way to soft-counter snipers. Machine guns counter infantry but infantry have a counterplay of their own: split up and flank it and it has to retreat. Snipers are hard counter or nothing: fight them with anything that's not a diving light vehicle or a sniper and they just back up and kite you, and because they're a single model with bonus health, they don't bleed manpower.

Ideas to help with that include:

• Make them multi-model squads with the same overall durability. That way they bleed manpower when attacked, and attacking a sniper is therefore no longer an all-or-nothing gamble.
  
  This isn't a very popular option and is unlikely to happen given the Soviet Sniper was switched away from this.
  
  or
  
  
• Give them a setup bar like a Flak HT or team weapon. That way they can't kite: if they're soft-retreating from enemy infantry, they're not shooting. Boost their range a little so they can still fight MGs in buildings.
  
  This is probably the most intuitive, user-friendly option, but longer range snipers with a setup time will probably change their playstyle a bit.
  
  or
  
  
• Give them a large suppression penalty so small arms fire suppresses them. This'll force a sniper that's taking fire from infantry to retreat.
  
  This preserves the current sniper playstyle, but prevents them from ever winning a 1v1 vs an infantry squad that's closed within 35 range.

The problems with the best counter to the sniper being another sniper are:

• It doesn't work against a more skilled sniper player, who'll countersnipe your countersniper.
  
• It forces you into sniper play. A lot of players loathe both using and fighting snipers.
  
• USF and OKW don't get snipers.

If removing countersniping would turn snipers into a nightmare then what that says to me is the other counterplays to sniper use are inadequate.

It'd be like the only viable counter to a medium tank being another medium tank with superior micro.



What's needed is a way to soft-counter snipers. Machine guns counter infantry but infantry have a counterplay of their own: split up and flank it and it has to retreat. Snipers are hard counter or nothing: fight them with anything that's not a diving light vehicle or a sniper and they just back up and kite you, and because they're a single model with bonus health, they don't bleed manpower.

Ideas to help with that include:

• Make them multi-model squads with the same overall durability. That way they bleed manpower when attacked, and attacking a sniper is therefore no longer an all-or-nothing gamble.
  
  This isn't a very popular option and is unlikely to happen given the Soviet Sniper was switched away from this.
  
  or
  
  
• Give them a setup bar like a Flak HT or team weapon. That way they can't kite: if they're soft-retreating from enemy infantry, they're not shooting. Boost their range a little so they can still fight MGs in buildings.
  
  This is probably the most intuitive, user-friendly option, but longer range snipers with a setup time will probably change their playstyle a bit.
  
  or
  
  
• Give them a large suppression penalty so small arms fire suppresses them. This'll force a sniper that's taking fire from infantry to retreat.
  
  This preserves the current sniper playstyle, but prevents them from ever winning a 1v1 vs an infantry squad that's closed within 35 range.

I kind of like all your ideas

I liked the idea of the 3 men recon squad that can snip with a muni ability. However, I don't find the suggestions from yesterday is it considered off topic?