How would you like the JLI to be nerfed?

You're talking nonsense. First of all the statement that the JLI were only not used because they were in a bad doctrine is a completely unsupported statement that you just made up. They were not a great or very cost efficient unit before which is why they were not used (just like airborne pathfinders weren't used at 1 CP and US ass enigs were underperforming at 4 men).



Shit dude, this patch has barely been out for a month and you're talking like the game has been irreversably ruined.

JLI were already powerful and nobody used them because of inferior doctrine and CP2 combination making them less attractive compared to just plain old Volkblob combined with Obers later on. JLI buffs are nothing more than green cover/garrison accuracy buff for sniper rifle and ambush ability out of stealth. You could blob JLI before and they were just as broken and effective, its just wasnt optimal to do due to bad doctrine requirement and CP2 lock on them, once those were removed it was already a huge buff by itself but that clearly deemed not enough

Also game IS in ruined state for large team games if 2 or more OKW players lock in Overwatch, city maps are pretty much completely unplayable thanks to JLI ninjas by themselves.

Volksblob
JLI blob
game is ruined
completely unplayable
jli ninjas

dude your semantics are fucked.
Im not high elo but its obviously high enough to avoid seeing such things.
but anyways, i have a proposition for you: Dont play the game. find sth that suits you more. stop complaining like everybody uses to do these days and find the thing you like instead of trying to change what you dont. youre the problem, not the game. thanks

JLI were already powerful and nobody used them because of inferior doctrine and CP2 combination making them less attractive compared to just plain old Volkblob combined with Obers later on. JLI buffs are nothing more than green cover/garrison accuracy buff for sniper rifle and ambush ability out of stealth. You could blob JLI before and they were just as broken and effective, its just wasnt optimal to do due to bad doctrine requirement and CP2 lock on them, once those were removed it was already a huge buff by itself but that clearly deemed not enough

Also game IS in ruined state for large team games if 2 or more OKW players lock in Overwatch, city maps are pretty much completely unplayable thanks to JLI ninjas by themselves.

Large team games are by definition not balanced, as it is impossible to balance with the current player base and nearly impossible with the assymetrical balance of 5 factions scaled top 6-8 times. I don't know what you are thinking that they should even aim for placing the focus on balancing in this scale.

JLI were really not possible to blob earlier if you were playing on a serious level dude. are you kidding me? No doubt they are too strong at this point, but if you're basing balance and bias on playing allies in 4v4 then we are operating on different planets and might as well have been debating on seperate games entirely.

The balance community have already been more than generous towards considering balance issues in the "kiddy pool" that is 3v3 and 4v4s

Large team games are by definition not balanced, as it is impossible to balance with the current player base and nearly impossible with the assymetrical balance of 5 factions scaled top 6-8 times. I don't know what you are thinking that they should even aim for placing the focus on balancing in this scale.

JLI were really not possible to blob earlier are you kidding me? No doubt they are too strong at this point, but if you're basing balance and bias on playing allies in 4v4 then we are operating on different planets and might as well have been debating on seperate games entirely.

The balance community have already been more than generous towards considering balance issues in the "kiddy pool" that is 3v3 and 4v4s

"kiddy pool" that consists of most players probably and the game would die out without them. Especially considering 2v2 pits top 100s against top 5k's on a regular basis due to the lack of players in that mode.
Thats kind of an elitist attitude, dont u think?

elitist.. can someone remind me that im actually on a company of heroes forum?
it used to be a place where people with an iq above 80 would make some intelligend suggestions and point out elemental flaws to improve the game. somehow it has become a place where every ass with ears shows up to complain and others (like katitof) come to troll

"kiddy pool" that consists of most players probably and the game would die out without them. Especially considering 2v2 pits top 100s against top 5k's on a regular basis due to the lack of players in that mode.
Thats kind of an elitist attitude, dont u think?

One does not exclude the other. As balance is impossible on this scale, 3v3 and 4v4 very much is a sandbox for experimenting and have fun. I do it myself sometimes if I'm not feeling up for the stress of 1v1. But it really is a kiddy pool, as you have no control of more than 10-20% of what's happening on the battlefield. That dosen't mean that it dosen't have its place.

But if they seriously tried to balance the game according to this scale, then the competitive 1v1 community and tournaments that really draw a crowd would turn into a complete and utter shit show.

elitist.. can someone remind me that im actually on a company of heroes forum?
it used to be a place where people with an iq above 80 would make some intelligend suggestions and point out elemental flaws to improve the game. somehow it has become a place where every ass with ears shows up to complain and others (like katitof) come to troll

Must have been a loooong time ago, because this subforum's been called 'The Latrine' since 2013.

One does not exclude the other. As balance is impossible on this level it very much is a sandbox for experimenting and have fun. I do it myself sometimes if I'm not feeling up for the stress of 1v1. But it really is a kiddy pool, as you have no control of more than 10-20% of what's happening on the battlefield. That dosen't mean that it dosen't have its place.

But if they seriously tried to balance the game according to this scale, then the competitive 1v1 community and tournaments that really draw a crowd would turn into a complete and utter shit show.

Could always have balance of your own in larger modes, atleast to an extent ( like fixing the resource flood/CP in larger modes)

But enough about that since this thread is about JLI.

Could always have balance of your own in larger modes, atleast to an extent ( like fixing the resource flood/CP in larger modes)

But enough about that since this thread is about JLI.

If we expect that from the balance team, then we probably need to start paying them

And regardless the biggest balance problem in 3v3 and 4v4s is not even the units, but the discrepancy of skill levels, when you have to mix and match the skill of 8 players in a time when as low as a few hundred are actively searcing for a match in that specific game mode.

JLI were really not possible to blob earlier if you were playing on a serious level dude. are you kidding me? No doubt they are too strong at this point, but if you're basing balance and bias on playing allies in 4v4 then we are operating on different planets and might as well have been debating on seperate games entirely.

Do you even realize JLI being impossible to blob is exactly the point? They are scout infitration unit which is currently being used as cheap, spammable elite AI squad that spawns everywhere on the map that slaughters pretty much everything when blobbed together.

Setting aside the massive chip on my shoulder I have about JLI for a moment, what if they had two upgrade paths?

• JLI remain almost exactly as they are now: 250 MP, long LoS, infiltration, first strike bonuses, all their abilities, everything. However, they spawn as a 3 man squad.

They've got two mutually exclusive upgrade paths, both of which cost only 30 munitions.

• Marksman Specialization: Gives the scoped G43. This gives the squad its very strong performance against cover, but it stays at 3 man. This makes it weak in a 1v1 battle and vulnerable to vehicle dives like a sniper.
  
• Recon Specialization: Adds a fourth model with a standard, nonscoped G43. This allows Jaegers to fill the Volks+ role they also fill at the moment. However, these tougher, Grenadier-like Jaegers don't get the anti-cover rifle. This squad is also effectively 281 manpower as you need to reinforce the fourth model.

You're talking nonsense. First of all the statement that the JLI were only not used because they were in a bad doctrine is a completely unsupported statement that you just made up. They were not a great or very cost efficient unit before which is why they were not used (just like airborne pathfinders weren't used at 1 CP and US ass enigs were underperforming at 4 men).

Thus the so called "Wehraboo crying" was not completely unsubstantiated and it was also a point made by players like me who play all factions equally.

Secondly the commander revamp was picked by the players! This in its very nature means that commanders were going to be changed and the JLI was a welcome addition to an otherwise pretty insignificant doctrine.

Shit dude, this patch has barely been out for a month and you're talking like the game has been irreversably ruined.

Is it the first time you experience balance not being 100% on point after an extensive rework patch?

He is not that entirely wrong about JLI, sorry to say.
Back in days Scavenger doctrine was overused vs USF for a looong time because of call-in Ostwind hitting the field at a moment USF could't have any proper counter except if going T2 or Armor, in fact at that time USF vs OKW could be resumed as Scavenger vs Armor. The doctrine was kinda OP vs USF and of all the 1vs1 games I played vs this particular doctrine I've always seen at least a pair of JLI pop in front of me and they always did their job well.
First hit to the JLI was when the doctrine fall from heaven when the Ostwind call in was remove but the JLI remained the same. Second hit to JLI was when OKW starting manpower has been buffed.
Yes you read it, giving 100 manpower more at the start of the game killed them since the OKW design went from 3xVolks to 4xVolks with little need to medium-strenght specialized infantry units coming at CP02 or CP03. The exact same problem hit Falls and Mr.Smith had to redesign the doctrine to make it appealing again - but mind that Falls haven't been buffed, just the doctrine been redesigned.
Last but not least, USF Airborn doctrine suffer the same issue with Paratroopers. Following the reasoning behind the JLI buff, Paratroopers could also be buffed to heaven and moved to CP1 as well.

JLI should have never been buffed, this is pure powercreep for a faction that doesn't need it, Scavenger should have been selected for redesign if the doctrine was that bad, the same way luftwaffe was.

And now what, we are talking about keeping JLI overbuffed but not spammable. What a joke I'm sorry, no unit should be overbuffed even if you can only call in one at time on the field. Otherwise what about the KT,Tiger,ISU etc... why not giving them back their old stats to all of them, after all they cost a lot, come late and can be build one per time, they are, as per definition, not spammable.

He is not that entirely wrong about JLI, sorry to say.
....I played vs this particular doctrine I've always seen at least a pair of JLI pop in front of me and they always did their job well.

JLI veterancy was way to high.

...
The exact same problem hit Falls and Mr.Smith had to redesign the doctrine to make it appealing again - but mind that Falls haven't been buffed, just the doctrine been redesigned.
...

That i simply incorrect...

They received major buff including a big price reduction:

Fallschirmjäger
Fallschirmjager are being adjusted to have better stock performance with only minor changes to their veterancy.

Now paradrop into the field instead of infiltrating.
Cost from 440 to 380
Reinforce cost from 38 to 36
Population from 8 to 9
Received accuracy from 0.87 to 0.83
Faust range from 15 to 18
Camouflages in cover when stationary; requires no veterancy
Veterancy 5 range bonus removed
Veterancy 3 received accuracy bonus removed
Veterancy 4 accuracy bonus moved to veterancy 3
Veterancy 3 now provides a -20% weapon cooldown
Veterancy requirements from 760/1520/3040/3800/5054 to 600/1200/2400/3000/3900

they, like ass engenier, need a CD at the start of the game, so they are not as numerous early game

They're CP1. Starting them on cooldown wouldn't achieve anything.

No, the balance team just needs to decide what they are.

If they're an elite combat squad meant to be equivalent to cloaking Grenadiers, they need to lose the anti-cover rifle. Give them a double standard G43 upgrade instead so they can scale.

If they're a half-sniper meant to work alongside another squad, they need to be much squishier. Making them 3 man would achieve that.

3 man jli? are u high?

Yes JLI are clearly over performing but people keep using words like broken and over exaggerating units performance, this was one of the reasons why relic had flopped so many updates because players would over exaggerate whats OP or UP leading to over buffs and over nerfs.

Clearly, from watching high level replays, JLI's are OP when ther blobbed, not when you have 1 or 2 them as support. Right now, they only need a price increase and munition increase for ther upgrade and if thats not enough, maybe a pop limit increase too. And if thats not enough then maybe you mover on to their raw performance, the last thing we need is some fat triple nerf thats guna make them useless

3 man jli? are u high?

Yes JLI are clearly over performing but people keep using words like broken and over exaggerating units performance, this was one of the reasons why relic had flopped so many updates because players would over exaggerate whats OP or UP leading to over buffs and over nerfs.

Clearly, from watching high level replays, JLI's are OP when ther blobbed, not when you have 1 or 2 them as support. Right now, they only need a price increase and munition increase for ther upgrade and if thats not enough, maybe a pop limit increase too. And if thats not enough then maybe you mover on to their raw performance, the last thing we need is some fat triple nerf thats guna make them useless

Preach! I like that I see JLI in the games again, what I don't like is that I'm guaranteed to meet them and in groups of 3-4 squads every match against OKW.

Much like pathfinders they are an interesting unit who offers an interesting seasoning to the factions they are in, but right now it's just being overseasoned.

Yes JLI are clearly over performing but people keep using words like broken and over exaggerating units performance, this was one of the reasons why relic had flopped so many updates because players would over exaggerate whats OP or UP leading to over buffs and over nerfs

In almost every other case I'd agree with you completely, but JLI are that broken. Their new sniper rifle has 0.9 accuracy versus cover. That's an insane advantage in a cover fight. Then throw the 75% health instakill threshold and the +50% First Strike accuracy bonus on top of that.

With their sniper rifle, JLI can comfortably go toe to toe with Obersoldaten, Guards and LMG Paras, all highly expensive squads specialized for long range cover combat. And that's 1v1. Equal manpower is an outright stomp.

This anti-cover tech is so powerful because the bonuses from cover are so high: 50% received accuracy in any cover, and a 50% damage reduction when in green cover. JLI get these bonuses but their sniper rifle ignores them from their opponent.

That's the strength of JLI: long range cover denial. And at CP1, that's a game-warping problem. That's what Snipers do. Snipers are balanced by a very high cost and being 1 man squads that get wiped outright by light vehicle flanks, and they're still an oppressive presence in any game they appear in.

• If JLI are meant to be an alternate AI squad, they need to lose the sniper rifle outright. Everything else is fine without it: give them a weapon upgrade that obeys cover rules instead if they need a scaling aid, such as double normal G43s.

• If they're meant to be a half-sniper, they need to be balanced against snipers, not Volks.

if the problem is the snipe treshold just nerf it by half and double the fire rate, so it's similar to pathfinder