Rework Penals

lategame obers and heavy mg-34 play can stop penal play alone pretty easily... t1/t2 might be harder to beat...

They perform ok, but NOT in the first min of game. Give them worse start weapons, old weapon profile with a 30mun mun upgrade.

After that we can balance Cons, Maxim etc.

They perform ok, but NOT in the first min of game. Give them worse start weapons, old weapon profile with a 30mun mun upgrade.

After that we can balance Cons, Maxim etc.

When first penal arrives, you have already 2 mainline inf squads on fiel.
By the time third penal arrives, you can have 5 mainline squads on field in OKW case and 4 grens+HMG/sniper in ost case.
This is why penals are strong and have to remain so to have a balanced early game.

Do not 1v1 them, because with superior squad count there is zero reason for you to do so.

You see a problem only because you ignore solution that already is present.

Penals are the bullies of COH2, they can dominate early to midgame to a point its almost impossible to recover. Obers take care of penals but not vetted penals, also the latter gets really fast xp because of sticky satchels and high dps.
Im not against them i just point out they really do all the heavy work by themselves, thats why they get spammed.

They perform ok, but NOT in the first min of game. Give them worse start weapons, old weapon profile with a 30mun mun upgrade.

After that we can balance Cons, Maxim etc.

imo a nerf to volks clone mosins x 260mp with an optional DP/PTRS upgrade is best... they can function as long range infantry and sync well with the ppsh conscript so that they dont obsolete each other... can trade well and win earlygame and lategame vs grens and volks... but not overwhelmingly so as of today...

Penals are the bullies of COH2, they can dominate early to midgame to a point its almost impossible to recover. Obers take care of penals but not vetted penals, also the latter gets really fast xp because of sticky satchels and high dps.
Im not against them i just point out they really do all the heavy work by themselves, thats why they get spammed.

ill be honest... they get spammed because sov has no other choice... remember sov was the worst allied faction before the penal buff... theyre the worst because T2 and conscripts suck soo bad theyre essentially useless

Invised a post for being offtopic

When first penal arrives, you have already 2 mainline inf squads on fiel.
By the time third penal arrives, you can have 5 mainline squads on field in OKW case and 4 grens+HMG/sniper in ost case.
This is why penals are strong and have to remain so to have a balanced early game.

Do not 1v1 them, because with superior squad count there is zero reason for you to do so.

You see a problem only because you ignore solution that already is present.

You need to field more squads in order to stop a penal raid, by each penal squad, 2 or 3 squads are necessary, or grens/volks get stomped. This madness continues until 10 min mark, each time having more penals squads added to that bully blob. Not even mgs can hold that much.
The sad part you dont mention or ignore intentionally is that SU still has a squad of engies and a M3 capturing undefended territories, since all troops are needed to stop the bully blob. Also note its harder to guess where is SU going to hit and even harder to hold them off.

actually... using the m3 with an engie to cap territories is a waste of an m3... the trick is to load a penal in it and happily murder 2x volks no problem... by then you can get the mp advantage to either outpump and outblob okw or opt for t2 and ready a maxim mortar and zis for HQ/defense popping and anti blob...

After some calculation on 20 range without vet. Did you know that a Penal_squad gets 14,86% more dps per invested menpower than an Obersoldat_squad?

That is even worse than Cons versus Obersoldaten. Which get only 12,75 less dps per menpower.

After some calculation on 20 range without vet. Did you know that a Penal_squad gets 14,86% more dps per invested menpower than an Obersoldat_squad?

That is even worse than Cons versus Obersoldaten. Which get only 12,75 less dps per menpower.

Well penals lack a weapon upgrade... their cost efficiency without a weapon upgrade is paid for when they do get one

They arrive nearly at same time as Grenadiers arrive. And Grenadiers are without vet and upgrade as cost-effective as Obersoldaten. So you can also say, that Penals are ~20% more effective as Grenadiers at vet0 and 20 range.

So you can say, the are OP as fu**. So even if you say they are more expensive, they have to be better. But they are 14% more effective as a Grenadier squad per menpower.


20 range:
1*Penal (one man) = 4,433 dps => 6*Penal (one squad) = 26,598 dps / 300 (price) = 0,089 dps/mp

1*Gren (one man) = 4,374 dps => 4*Gren (one squad) = 17,496 dps / 240 (Price) = 0,073 dps/mp

100 / 0,073 * 0,089 = 121,918 = ~22%

After some calculation on 20 range without vet. Did you know that a Penal_squad gets 14,86% more dps per invested menpower than an Obersoldat_squad?

That is even worse than Cons versus Obersoldaten. Which get only 12,75 less dps per menpower.

Mid range focused squad with no AI weapon upgrade does more mid range DPS then unupgraded long range squad that isn't supposed to be used without an upgrade?
Oh boy! What an imbalance! Oh the injustice!

So, does that comparison of yours have a point or you just wanted to compare 2 completely random squads with completely different intended engagement distance?

They aren't role equivalents at all and each time you compare unupgraded obers, you're invoking obvious bias.

You want to compare penals with obers, then STG obers is what you are looking for here.
Go compare it now and return with results.

They arrive nearly at same time as Grenadiers arrive. And Grenadiers are without vet and upgrade as cost-effective as Obersoldaten. So you can also say, that Penals are ~20% more effective as Grenadiers at vet0 and 20 range.

So you can say, the are OP as fu**. So even if you say they are more expensive, they have to be better. But they are 14% more effective as a Grenadier squad per menpower.


20 range:
1*Penal (one man) = 4,433 dps => 6*Penal (one squad) = 26,598 dps / 300 (price) = 0,089 dps/mp

1*Gren (one man) = 4,374 dps => 4*Gren (one squad) = 17,496 dps / 240 (Price) = 0,073 dps/mp

You will have 2 grens on field when first penal hits.

You're also comparing apples to oranges and completely ignoring the fact that
-grens have native 0.91 rec acc, while penals have 1
-grens are long range oriented, not short range and 20 range is optimal distance for penals against grens, not grens against penals, who want to stay at max range at all times
-you will always have more grens then penals for the same menpower cost, unless you don't want to.

Also, you must really be losing your marbles about riflemen, who have similar DPS, very good weapon ugprades and vet that actually makes them durable.

Mid range focused squad with no AI weapon upgrade does more mid range DPS then unupgraded long range squad that isn't supposed to be used without an upgrade?
Oh boy! What an imbalance! Oh the injustice!

So, does that comparison of yours have a point or you just wanted to compare 2 completely random squads with completely different intended engagement distance?

They aren't role equivalents at all and each time you compare unupgraded obers, you're invoking obvious bias.

You want to compare penals with obers, then STG obers is what you are looking for here.
Go compare it now and return with results.

That means that until T2 and 60mun upgrade Soviets are 22% more effective per menpower Investment that Ostheer. That is balanced?

Edit:

Should I also use all mp/fuel/mun needed for Obersoldaten? lol I think you simply have no idea of balancing. xD

That means that until T2 and 60mun upgrade Soviets are 22% more effective per menpower Investment that Ostheer. That is balanced?

Compare it at 30 range, which is intended grenadier engagement distance and tell what your math does then.

And yes, that is balanced.

300 menpower squad is more effective then 240 menpower squad.
That is EXACTLY how balance is supposed to work.

I am going to blow your mind now, but listen and focus:

280 menpower squads are also more effective and have higher DPS then 240mp squad.

Also, did you knew?
A 200 mp osttruppen squad will be less effective then 240mp conscript squad?
I don't know, but I see a great injustice here, cheaper squads should not lose to more expensive squads, right?

Compare it at 30 range, which is intended grenadier engagement distance and tell what your math does then.

And yes, that is balanced.

300 menpower squad is more effective then 240 menpower squad.
That is EXACTLY how balance is supposed to work.

I am going to blow your mind now, but listen and focus:

280 menpower squads are also more effective and have higher DPS then 240mp squad.

Also, did you knew?
A 200 mp osttruppen squad will be less effective then 240mp conscript squad?
I don't know, but I see a great injustice here, cheaper squads should not lose to more expensive squads, right?

1. It is the effective per menpower invest. That means, that one men of Penal is 22% CHEAPER per for ist Performance than a Grenadier. That means, that you get 22% MORE firepower per menpower the unit costs.

That means that Penals are 22% too cheap, if you say Grenadiers are balanced for their dps and price.

Edit: wait some mins. ^^

They come way to early for their Performance. Its like u could build obers at 3 min mark...

By this logic, Sturmpioneers come "way too early for their performance."

Also, Penals aren't really comparable to obers. God forbid Soviet have a decent infantry unit, right?

It doesn't work that way.

I would explain to you why, buy I can talk to a literal rock for only so long before I realize I'm doing something insane.

By this logic, Sturmpioneers come "way too early for their performance."

Also, Penals aren't really comparable to obers. God forbid Soviet have a decent infantry unit, right?

Same as Tommies.

...

I have to edit so thing:

First tests were at range 10 not 20! (Relic's data only give 0/10/20/30)

On range 30 Penals are 2,3% more cost-effective as a Grenadier.
On range 20 Penals are 10,7% more costeffective as a Grenadier.
On range 10 Penals are 22% more costeffective as a Grenadier.

Also on paper the allways have higher dps without upgrade and without vet. For the higher survive-ability of 6men that isn't balanced.

Sure Gren get the lmg42 =
range 20 = 8,678 extra dps
range 30 = 9,26 extra dps


On range 30 that are 16,372 versus 13,062
On range 20 that are 18,684 versus 18,707

That means, that even with the teching and the upgrade for a LMG42 Grens are only have more dps over 20 range.

I have to edit so thing:

First tests were at range 10 not 20! (Relic's data only give 0/10/20/30)

On range 30 Penals are 2,3% more cost-effective as a Grenadier.
On range 20 Penals are 10,7% more costeffective as a Grenadier.
On range 10 Penals are 22% more costeffective as a Grenadier.

That's not how it works.
That's not how any of it works.

How will you account panzerfaust, rifle nade, bunker building?
How will you account different rec acc?
How will you account weapon upgrades?
How will you account for the fact that penals DO arrive LATER then grens and grens will always outnumber them?
How will you account for different pop cap?
How will you account for best in game support weapons right behind grens?

You're just comparing numbers that are meaningless and you don't even compare units of the same or even similar weapon profiles.

You can't see forrest because of the trees.
You see only what you want to see.