P2W whine thread.

This way of business is bad for your reputation. Christ, not even F2P games like LoL make core content of their game completely inaccessible. you can at least still use in-game currency for that stuff.

And before we go there, I really don't want to have to grind in-game currency for a game that isn't F2P. I already paid for the game, so give me the game I paid for. Instead, it's like I'm buying a 'lite' version of a smart-phone game.

Having a bad reputation doesn't earn you more customers. And when you're not as big as EA, who can plug away a million into advertising their game, you rely on what is really, the best form of advertising: word of mouth. In a world of twitters, facebook, streaming and absolute connectivity - your reputation is damned important.

Right now, the reputation my friends have got from this game recently is "The game is damned awesome, but it's not worth buying, because they're diming you for fundamental game features after you already buy the game. And you can't even use an in-game currency to access them. Buy this game instead: *insert alternative"

And then there are my friends who do have the game. I tell them what I've had to say on this so far, and none of them are willing to buy the commanders. We have alternative games to play, and we'll just buy a clever little indie game on steam, instead.

They certainly won't get any more money from me, because you're right, I've already paid for the game, and they've already got my money. But they won't be getting my friends' money, because they listen to my opinion over what metacritic has to say. Even if every player just got one friend to buy the game, you double your money. When you make it so that none of your existing players are encouraging their friends to buy the game, you're losing out on WAY more money than bleeding a reluctant player-base, that isn't all that big.

If they want to make some extra money, then sell skins. Infantry skins, more vehicle skins. That's a start, and if there were more to choose from, I'd probably buy one or two, if not because I want them, but just to support the company. Though, I won't be supporting them if they want to grab at my money at every opportunity.

again, a lot of people on this forum never bought a commander and has already bought the p2w stuff.
the only people that bought commanders previously were a very small fraction of players, someone that wanted to fine tune his strategy and really needed a particular combination of abilities.
if you make paid multiplayer DLCs and let them play with non-DLC users they will ALWAYS be pay to win (either that or they are "pay to lose", and no one will buy them)

"if you make paid multiplayer DLCs and let them play with non-DLC users they will ALWAYS be pay to win "

Yes. These are P2W.

For every one person that buys one, several other people will leave the MP pool.

COH2 is now officially P2W, and in gaming terms, thats like contracting HIV.

@tuvok: Let's say you are right, that half the people on the forum bought the new DLC. For every person who buys the new DLC then, there is a person who doesn't. Those people will find themselves no longer able to play multiplayer because they are getting facerolled by P2W DLC Commanders. They quit MP.

Now the MP player pool is down to 50%. Fine. Sega releases the next 4 DLC Commanders (coming soon with the next ToW pack, I bet). But now there are less players to buy the DLC, so what does Sega do? Jack up the price of each commander to, let's say, $5. Now, the same thing happens again where half the people don't buy them. Now you're down to 25% of the original player pool. This means Sega is now making less and less money each and every time they release new DLC (unless they double the price each time, good luck with that).

This is assuming a perfectly linear relationship in which there is no snowball effect of players leaving causing other players to leave in turn. The actual model would decrease at a rate faster than this.

I think what people are missing out on here is that this is an RTS game, not an MMORPG. There is no strategy involved if all there is going to be are new P2W commanders every month or two.

Now the MP player pool is down to 50%. Fine. Sega releases the next 4 DLC Commanders (coming soon with the next ToW pack, I bet). But now there are less players to buy the DLC, so what does Sega do? Jack up the price of each commander to, let's say, $5. Now, the same thing happens again where half the people don't buy them. Now you're down to 25% of the original player pool. This means Sega is now making less and less money each and every time they release new DLC (unless they double the price each time, good luck with that).

this seems quite accurate to me. A lot of people play Battlefield Lite, little less play, say, DLC 1, little less play DLC 2.

I think what people are missing out on here is that this is an RTS game, not an MMORPG. There is no strategy involved if all there is going to be are new P2W commanders every month or two.

what you are missing out is that I don't approve in no way this crap, I've simply grown out of the "I won't buy this unethical stuff and they will all go broke!" ingenuity.
They perfectly know what they are doing and know very well that the gains outweigh the losses.

Let's be honest with each other, we all knew these kind of Commanders would have come, one day or another: even if Relic now decides to give CE holders 10 new Commanders with all new abilities for free, after that they would start selling more new Commanders with new abilities (and yes, eventually even OP).

This is the kind of model they decided to adopt, despite having said they would have not made the game P2W. Watching Relic streams and knowing how the Relic Balance Team works I seriously doubt the Balance Team had a voice to balance these commanders before, it's obvious that a FHQ that doubles your units values is something Peter, Piero and Brad would have never allowed, same for "For the Motherland".

That's what I'd blame Relic for, each new Commander should be pre-balanced by the Balance Team in a way that it would add something new but not something stronger than what's available to everyone, eventually even excluding (only in rare cases) specific Commanders from certain game modes (e.g. 1vs1) if they can't balance them well enough for that game mode.

I'm pretty sure that before everyone would understand the real potential (and downsides) of these new doctrines there would already be a patch to fix the major problems with them.

And guys, be sure that we are looking closely at Commanders for upcoming bigger events, our events will always favour fair competition and if we feel some stuff is just too strong at the current stage we would simply ban it from our tourneys Sure, it does not solve the core issue (which only Relic can resolve by balancing Commanders hopefully before releasing them), but it would at least put everyone on the same level.

A DLC/Commander doesn't have to be OP or provide P2W stuff to sell well, it has to be well made and provide something interesting and new that promotes new ways to approach the game not getting the other player who does not have it lose anything in return.

Well said, Marcus.

They perfectly know what they are doing and know very well that the gains outweigh the losses.

Gains to whom.

These P2W DLC completely trash all the work the balance team has done and all the community testing uptil now.

They ruin the reputation of the game by stamping it as P2W, meaning less MP pool.
They piss off the existing pre-order/CE pool immensely.
They piss off the existing MP base.

Marketing department seems to have managed to get their grubby fingers into this, and is ruining it for everyone else with no regard for the consequences.

Marketing department seems to have managed to get their grubby fingers into this, and is ruining it for everyone else with no regard for the consequences.

the consequences are: more money, worse reputation, and that's what I mean with "the gains outweigh the losses"

the consequences are: more money, worse reputation, and that's what I mean with "the gains outweigh the losses"

I'm not convinced it makes more money this way.

Could just as well make money with a better reputation attracting more buyers to the game as a whole, while providing benign DLC options for cash, such as skins or re-shuffles.

Especially considering how serious a P2W stamp is. For many people, that is an auto-boycott.

Option 1:
-Maintain good relationship with MP community, and healthy MP pool, with good balance and non-invasive DLC providing some income. Brings more players to the game, keeps existing players in the game. Make a little money, everyone's happy and reputation ensures good media and advertising for the company.

Option 2:
-Release P2W DLC. Destroy existing work on balance. Piss off MP base. Piss off pre-order/CE base. Reduces MP pool, leading to even more pissed off MP base. Causes players to leave the game and keeps possible buyers away. Make a little money, everyone hates you and reputation ruined.

It's very telling that Relic would release new game content without even balancing it first... It definitely makes me wonder who is running the show over there at Relic? Certainly not someone who cares about the company's reputation.



I don't like pay to win but I get that's what Relic opted for at the outset and we're following that path. Okay, if you're game is good enough I'll overlook it and keep at it. But, what is so concerning is Relic is obviously spending resources (programmers, artists, etc) on cashing in on DLC when the game is not yet complete. Ladders, Custom game lobbies, chats, observer mode, map designer, etc. should ALL be finished before stuff like this comes out. Hell, at least give us some of it.


If you're going to treat us like prostitutes could we at least pretend we're high class call girls and not $10 crack whores? Show us some class Relic.

If you're going to treat us like prostitutes could we at least pretend we're high class call girls and not $10 crack whores? Show us some class Relic.

LOL.

+1

What an aptly named thread...

1. Post after post blanket asserting that the new commanders are P2W, yet I see no replays or balance threads addressing any of them.
There is no way that, in the ~18hrs the new patch has been out, the meta game has changed enough to determine how OP the new commanders are. In other words: less QQ, more pewpew, please.

2. Even if they are OP, it does not follow that Relic deliberately made them so to be able to charge more. It could be speculated that they erred on the side of OP when they created them, but that is a common balancing strategy and not necessarily nefarious.

3. They will be changed towards better balance in time just like the preexisting commanders and every other unit and ability in the game.

I think they could of avoided a lot of this haterade if they'd released just one of their promised additions to the game along with the DLC (say Observer mode). This way Relic could point to the DLC and say see, it's micro purchases like these that allow us to continue improving the game. But, nope. They passed that option up.


It's the idea of an incomplete game cashing in on it's fans that is so repugnant to many people. And they totally hosed the CE folks. Hosed 'em good. haha.

I'm not convinced it makes more money this way.

Could just as well make money with a better reputation attracting more buyers to the game as a whole, while providing benign DLC options for cash, such as skins or re-shuffles.

Especially considering how serious a P2W stamp is. For many people, that is an auto-boycott.

Option 1:
-Maintain good relationship with MP community, and healthy MP pool, with good balance and non-invasive DLC providing some income. Brings more players to the game, keeps existing players in the game. Make a little money, everyone's happy and reputation ensures good media and advertising for the company.

Option 2:
-Release P2W DLC. Destroy existing work on balance. Piss off MP base. Piss off pre-order/CE base. Reduces MP pool, leading to even more pissed off MP base. Causes players to leave the game and keeps possible buyers away. Make a little money, everyone hates you and reputation ruined.

in regards of gain to whom.

gains to SEGA, loss to RELIC.

im pretty sure sega wants to get the money back the lost on the prepurchases of coh2 before THQ sold it. i know there where some news about it but i did not do my reserach i dont know if THQ payed that money or if they didnt.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/07/10/sega-sue-thq-for-940000-over-company-of-heroes-2-pre-orders/

guess who they want to take those 900 grands from.

What an aptly named thread...

1. Post after post blanket asserting that the new commanders are P2W, yet I see no replays or balance threads addressing any of them.
There is no way that, in the ~18hrs the new patch has been out, the meta game has changed enough to determine how OP the new commanders are. In other words: less QQ, more pewpew, please.

2. Even if they are OP, it does not follow that Relic deliberately made them so to be able to charge more. It could be speculated that they erred on the side of OP when they created them, but that is a common balancing strategy and not necessarily nefarious.

3. They will be changed towards better balance in time just like the preexisting commanders and every other unit and ability in the game.

there is no balance in something that have not been played. how many people got the commanders? how many times have they been fielded? wait and be patient. the treads will come.

in my guess only noobs got the commanders. they are still noobs lost and went back to their old comanders. some will stick to them while they are new. then the treads will come.

brace for winter.

The only DLC I'm interested in is the DLC that makes COH1 playable again.

COH2 is possibly the biggest let down/train wreck I've seen yet.

What an aptly named thread...

1. Post after post blanket asserting that the new commanders are P2W, yet I see no replays or balance threads addressing any of them.
There is no way that, in the ~18hrs the new patch has been out, the meta game has changed enough to determine how OP the new commanders are. In other words: less QQ, more pewpew, please.

2. Even if they are OP, it does not follow that Relic deliberately made them so to be able to charge more. It could be speculated that they erred on the side of OP when they created them, but that is a common balancing strategy and not necessarily nefarious.

3. They will be changed towards better balance in time just like the preexisting commanders and every other unit and ability in the game.

Quoting this because he's one of the few people looking at this rationally.

guess who they want to take those 900 grands from.

They milk it from the fans.
Thanks Relic for milking me:

The really sad part of this is the following:

- Number of active players - 5000 (and thats generous given the steam charts indicating more like 3-4)

- Cost of a DLC to each player (assuming each of those 5000 buys just 1): $2.99

5000 x 3 = $15,000.

So for the grand bargain price of 15k you just:

- P!ssed off ALL those that bought your CE
- Divided an already small community
- Put off future players who see this as $60 AND a cr@p load of further DLC.

That's possibly the dumbest 15K I've ever seen.

The really sad part of this is the following:

- Number of active players - 5000 (and thats generous given the steam charts indicating more like 3-4)

- Cost of a DLC to each player (assuming each of those 5000 buys just 1): $2.99

5000 x 3 = $15,000.

So for the grand bargain price of 15k you just:

- P!ssed off ALL those that bought your CE
- Divided an already small community
- Put off future players who see this as $60 AND a cr@p load of further DLC.

That's possibly the dumbest 15K I've ever seen.

And it will get even worse.New DLC "Victory at Stalingrad" are already on its way.With probably another 4 more new multiplayer DLC Commanders to milk the fans even harder(KV-2 Commander is comming!!!!)

What an aptly named thread...

1. Post after post blanket asserting that the new commanders are P2W, yet I see no replays or balance threads addressing any of them.
There is no way that, in the ~18hrs the new patch has been out, the meta game has changed enough to determine how OP the new commanders are. In other words: less QQ, more pewpew, please.

2. Even if they are OP, it does not follow that Relic deliberately made them so to be able to charge more. It could be speculated that they erred on the side of OP when they created them, but that is a common balancing strategy and not necessarily nefarious.

3. They will be changed towards better balance in time just like the preexisting commanders and every other unit and ability in the game.

My issue isn't balance, or that the commanders are strictly P2W. P2W is just a hyperbole of the problem here. P2W is just the tagline to get your attention of the real problem - the principal of being hustled like this. I needn't repeat what I said, or what others have said - but most of what has been said has been nothing to do with what is, or isn't OP. New stuff is released; it's OP. That's cardinal. Some have a problem with how often this might shake up balance (too often?), those like me have a problem with being shelled in this manner.