USF Tech Changes Mod Changelog

How about moving the mortar to Captain so there is a reason to go captain instead of Lt

Making the airdrop provide a ATG and Pack howitzer so that one can still have access to these type of weapon if one goes LT (howi could also become a call in for more commanders like infantry one replacing the m21)

Free a slot for a new ability?

M20 feels like it vets really fast, there isn't a whole lot of counter play from OKW BG for it either, unless you want to force cloaked clump rak creep which is just awful to play against.

Vet 3 mine laying speed is WAY too fast for a mine that immobilizes. Probably shouldn't add additional mine laying speed for that unit. Immobilize is very punishing and doesn't need to be spammed left right and center if someone keeps an M20 alive.

What´s the reason of putting Pak Howi behind side-tech? Doesn´t make that much sense to me. It would be fine if it was just unlocked after you get your Captain out. Against Ostheer you need indirect fire relatively early to deal with MG42s. It´s not really viable to get Pak Howi for that because it just arrives way too late.

We played around 10 games with the revamp patch. USF seemed good in 1v1. The earlier officer squad makes a real difference. So does the availability of AT options in every tier. I don´t think there is much of a problem with the changes in 1v1. Generally positive IMO.

In 2v2 USF still seemed pretty bad though. Not sure if the revamp mod will make USF a viable 2v2 faction, I guess UKF and Soviets will still be better than them. The problems that USF had in team games aren´t really solved.

I think the point of the mod was just to fix USF in 1v1. This mod might help the USF a little in the early game in team games but doesn't address any of their late game problems. The don't have good answers to the Ele/Stupa/JT/KT combo's that you see on maps like Red Ball. Nerfing the Calliope into uselessness definitely really hurt because it used to force infantry to retreat so that you could possibly push off the armor with infantry.

The Vet 3 RA nerf had a noticeable effect on rifle squad survivability in 4v4. Losing those squads really hurts because Vet 0 rifles versus even a Vet 0 Ober is a joke. Also, it used to be that players would replace rifles with RE's late game when RE's only cost 160, realizing that they were likely to lose them anyway but could at least cap with them and possibly equip with a bazooka. Now, at 200 mp with a high likelihood of being wiped they really aren't cost effective any more. Reverting those nerfs might bring USF back into parity.

Alternatively, Relic and the mod team could make a tech change that might help a lot. The Pershing doesn't have the same impact in 4's as it does in 1v1's, but making it non-doctrinal would probably help (similar to KT). It would have to be tied into unlocking all three officers plus the side tech, and possibly another side tech from Major so that it can't come out before KT in a 1v1. The Pershing from Heavy Cav could then be replaced with an Easy 8 (preferably) or 76mm Sherman.

How about moving the mortar to Captain so there is a reason to go captain instead of Lt

Making the airdrop provide a ATG and Pack howitzer so that one can still have access to these type of weapon if one goes LT (howi could also become a call in for more commanders like infantry one replacing the m21)

Free a slot for a new ability?

There's literally no reason to build a usf mortar instead of a pack howie. The pack howie is just better at everything.

M20 feels like it vets really fast, there isn't a whole lot of counter play from OKW BG for it either, unless you want to force cloaked clump rak creep which is just awful to play against.

Vet 3 mine laying speed is WAY too fast for a mine that immobilizes. Probably shouldn't add additional mine laying speed for that unit. Immobilize is very punishing and doesn't need to be spammed left right and center if someone keeps an M20 alive.

The limiting factor for m20 mines is usually muni, not time. Have fun getting beat with no BARs by cheaper infantry if you spam a ton of m20 mines. M20 stil gets forced off by 1 atg shot (still dies in 2 hits right?) just like a flaktrack would, and has less raw dps than a flaktrack, so I don't really see the problem. It barely has more health than the kubel lmao.

There's literally no reason to build a usf mortar instead of a pack howie. The pack howie is just better at everything.
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You mean other than it has a tech cost and it locked behind captain?

M20 Mine costs the same munitions as a BAR, it's costly but it's good and to be honest, if you see an M20 you should buy a sweeper.

There's literally no reason to build a usf mortar instead of a pack howie. The pack howie is just better at everything.

smoke

The limiting factor for m20 mines is usually muni, not time. Have fun getting beat with no BARs by cheaper infantry if you spam a ton of m20 mines. M20 stil gets forced off by 1 atg shot (still dies in 2 hits right?) just like a flaktrack would, and has less raw dps than a flaktrack, so I don't really see the problem. It barely has more health than the kubel lmao.

Once you're done with BARs and upgrades etc you float munis just like every other faction. I also don't expect players to be planting early M6 AT mines, but if the M20 survives to lategame those mines are devastating. Everything that was said here could be all be applied to the OST HT riegel. Both of them should get this buff or neither.

Both of them should get this buff or neither.

But doesn't this line imply that we shouldn't make good changes if we can't do the same for every other things that's similar? If that were the case, we'd be able to make a lot fewer positive changes.

To me, this argument only makes sense if the change creates a balance issue that would be mitigated by making the same change to everything else thats similar. I don't imagine this change in particular creates a balance issue though.

But doesn't this line imply that we shouldn't make good changes if we can't do the same for every other things that's similar? If that were the case, we'd be able to make a lot fewer positive changes.

To me, this argument only makes sense if the change creates a balance issue that would be mitigated by making the same change to everything else thats similar. I don't imagine this change in particular creates a balance issue though.

No it implies if you're going to make BAD changes that are reasonably unbalanced for a single side, they should at least go to both sides so both sides can abuse the living crap out of it. I.e. demos only available to allies currently.

Who thought buffing the M20 lay time to 5 seconds was a good idea? Standard mines in 5 seconds from the M20? No problem. Immobilize is simply too punishing. If you hit one you need to secure 60 range towards your opponets base as well so you don't get shot at by AT guns. Then you need to actually have engineers nearby to repair the vehicle.

Weird how some people say "buy a sweeper" but I seem to remember people complaining about OHK tellers like 2 weeks ago.

Imo all officer that have normal DPS should loose shared veterancy (including Ostheer if I remember correctly). (major could be an exception due to low DPS unless he can start vetting from off map barrage)

In addition passive sprint should become a timed ability for officer (and any other unit that has it)

Losing shared veterancy's reasonable.

Passive sprint's a nice touch, and turning it into an Oorah would probably be a buff.

I'd also second a change to the m20 mine, disable is frustrating and the mine itself too expensive to be used early on. Switch it to a teller and adjust cost: win-win.

I don't think removing shared vet would create any problems and think it should be removed since the squads (Lt and Cpt) are capable enough to gain vet. Not so the major, however. If it is possible, the captain's received accuracy should be brought to the same level as rifles and Lt at vet3.

No it implies if you're going to make BAD changes that are reasonably unbalanced for a single side, they should at least go to both sides so both sides can abuse the living crap out of it. I.e. demos only available to allies currently.

Who thought buffing the M20 lay time to 5 seconds was a good idea? Standard mines in 5 seconds from the M20? No problem. Immobilize is simply too punishing. If you hit one you need to secure 60 range towards your opponets base as well so you don't get shot at by AT guns. Then you need to actually have engineers nearby to repair the vehicle.

Weird how some people say "buy a sweeper" but I seem to remember people complaining about OHK tellers like 2 weeks ago.

Right, because demos are abused so hard right now.

Sounds like you dont have an issue with the m20 vet 3 mine laying speed change, you have an issue with the mines themselves. This is a different topic entirely, and one that this patch doesn't seek to address (as far as im aware, anyway; this mod already covered more topics than I think we wanted it to...).

And yes. Some people are telling you to buy a sweeper. Those also happen to be entirely different people who have different opinions than those people complaining about OHK mines. Either youre assuming everyone who responds to you should be grouped into a singular entity and shouldnt have their own separate opinions, or youre trying to illustrate how divisive a topic this is.

You mean other than it has a tech cost and it locked behind captain?

Sory, should have clarified: if you put the mortar in captain tier there'd be no reason to make a mortar instead of a pack howie.

smoke


Once you're done with BARs and upgrades etc you float munis just like every other faction. I also don't expect players to be planting early M6 AT mines, but if the M20 survives to lategame those mines are devastating. Everything that was said here could be all be applied to the OST HT riegel. Both of them should get this buff or neither.

Smoke is nice but I'd rather just blow up the mg or whatever (which the pack howie does pretty reliably). RE/officer smoke is also generally more reliable and quicker, if shorter ranged. Don't get me wrong, it has its uses, but usually I'd still rather have a pack howie than a glorified smoke dispenser.

Once you're done with BARs. If you build 3 rifles, that's 360 for 6 BARs, and if you put them on your LT or CPT, then it's 480. If you get double zooks on a squad (presumably your REs) that's 580. Even for just single BARs for each squad that still comes out to 340, but realistically you eventually need double BARs.

Sory, should have clarified: if you put the mortar in captain tier there'd be no reason to make a mortar instead of a pack howie.

No need to apologize.

Maybe I was not clear either, the suggestions is that Howitzer would be removed from captain and become doctrinal.

Candidate doctrines would be"airborne" combined with the ATG in one drop (similar to other abilities in the game) to allow LT to major builds (hmg drop removed for a new ability), "infantry" commander replacing the M21 so that one invest less fuel to indirect fire support thus having easier access to priest.

Right, because demos are abused so hard right now.

Sounds like you dont have an issue with the m20 vet 3 mine laying speed change, you have an issue with the mines themselves. This is a different topic entirely, and one that this patch doesn't seek to address (as far as im aware, anyway; this mod already covered more topics than I think we wanted it to...).

And yes. Some people are telling you to buy a sweeper. Those also happen to be entirely different people who have different opinions than those people complaining about OHK mines. Either youre assuming everyone who responds to you should be grouped into a singular entity and shouldnt have their own separate opinions, or youre trying to illustrate how divisive a topic this is.

Demos were used in GCS2 on buildings for free wipes = abused. No wipe should be brain dead, otherwise skill wouldn't matter. It would just be who could abuse the most braindead crap instead actual skill in games.

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But your assumption of me disliking immobilize is correct. As I've said many times already, it's very punishing. However they won't remove it from the game, just like abandon, just like main gun crit and many other terrible mechanics. Instead I intend to stop the spread of these terrible mechanics by buffs such as this.

What this patch entails is completely up for whatever relic and the unbalanced cornerstone table decides it seems. First it was commanders, then we threw in royal engineer snares (deserved), then we saw the brummbar and t70 nerfs (deserved) and now we have USF getting a tech structure rework (deserved). Tomorrow it'll be nerfs to the demo and goliath.

I actually went back to the OHK thread and looked for a certain person, funnily he/she hadn't posted about it. They all tend to blur together occasionally because they all spout the same stuff most of the time. Unfortunatly for me though this time was not it.

Smoke is nice but I'd rather just blow up the mg or whatever (which the pack howie does pretty reliably). RE/officer smoke is also generally more reliable and quicker, if shorter ranged. Don't get me wrong, it has its uses, but usually I'd still rather have a pack howie than a glorified smoke dispenser.

Once you're done with BARs. If you build 3 rifles, that's 360 for 6 BARs, and if you put them on your LT or CPT, then it's 480. If you get double zooks on a squad (presumably your REs) that's 580. Even for just single BARs for each squad that still comes out to 340, but realistically you eventually need double BARs.

I understand and I agree 100% as far as pack howie vs mortar goes, and I'm sad that if I do want to get a pack howie i'll have to buy full CPT and still get LT for the HMG.

I don't expect people to forego BARs just for the M6 AT mine, but you can very much sacrifice a single BAR for a potential game changing mine. 1x BAR though will not be a game changer in itself. The power of the AT mine remains. Furthermore zooks will see a reduction in usage because of how accessible the AT gun will be.

I understand and I agree 100% as far as pack howie vs mortar goes, and I'm sad that if I do want to get a pack howie i'll have to buy full CPT and still get LT for the HMG.

I don't expect people to forego BARs just for the M6 AT mine, but you can very much sacrifice a single BAR for a potential game changing mine. 1x BAR though will not be a game changer in itself. The power of the AT mine remains. Furthermore zooks will see a reduction in usage because of how accessible the AT gun will be.

Yeah well it's still much much better than the current situation for usf.

That's true, but it's a gamble that, regardless of whether it pays off or not, means that one of your rifle squads is running around losing to basically everything. I agree that immobilization should probably go though. Maybe a 35 muni mine that only detonates on vehicles and does like 80 more damage than a normal mine?

That's true, but it's a gamble that, regardless of whether it pays off or not, means that one of your rifle squads is running around losing to basically everything. I agree that immobilization should probably go though. Maybe a 35 muni mine that only detonates on vehicles and does like 80 more damage than a normal mine?

I wouldn't care if it was a 400 damage mine that OHK all axis lights like the teller. So long as it doesn't spell certain death 98% of the time for anything bigger because I can't move my armor away.

I wouldn't care if it was a 400 damage mine that OHK all axis lights like the teller. So long as it doesn't spell certain death 98% of the time for anything bigger because I can't move my armor away.

I think that OHK-ing light vehicles is just as BS as immobilize. Light vehicles are just as valuable to a player when they come out as a p4 or sherman.

Played a few matches but its kinda hard to tell how it'll match up with commander changes. Overall I found the changes to be refreshing and allow for more diversity not only in USF opening but also mid game. The CP addition to the tiers also allows for units like the m8 Gray-hound to possibly hit the field in a reasonable time as well as push a couple of USFs mid tier abilities a bit forward to be useful.

I will hold my judgment however until we see a commander mixed patch but I like what I am seeing.