Angoville Discussion

I just love how this map was the 5th most played map, now its even better, and everyone is complaining. Classic COH2 community. From all of your arguments, it would be inferred to just remove 1v1 automatch from the game

4v4 foreva

Stats are old

Same issues we had with langreskya, kholodny, faymonville (all had serious issues that were updated/adjusted over the last 5 years, but in much smaller amounts the last revamp was larger). What I mean by this is that new players or casual players will not veto the map cause its something they have potentially played on for 12 years. Small changes would go unnoticed for the most part. However these large changes are going to stir controversy, this is because it is no longer Angoville as I keep saying. Currently every top 100 player I've talked to has put this as a veto in general (along with arnhem, lost glider, and caen).

You keep seeming to take this personally, but in reality it isn't your fault. It is the maps flawed design (since it is a direct port from vcoh - coh2), and the fact that not all the changes to make it better were allowed to be implemented.

So again, I would rather sit down, make a new map in 2 days and put that instead. As I do think the general idea for territory layout can work, just needs to have better building placement, and less abuse around the cutoffs (which lends in hand to better building placement), slightly less terrain elevation, more distance between the east VPs, and better retreat paths.

I don't take any of this personally. I take it as a chance to learn more about mapping and to get more information out there about mapping.

A few people said it has too many sight blockers. I agreed.

The house is a little strong for the south cutoff. I agreed. But was pointing out that it has not proven strong in any of the games I have seen. And that top players have not been playing so we dont have any data to say what it will be like.

North house is OP for Brits. I can see that. But it is a faction design issue. Not a map issue. If brits were designed to remove hedgerows then they should be able to remove them.

It seems like I have an issue and I do in a way. Getting people to verbalize what they dont like is a problem because they are not mappers. So they dont know the lingo. So all I have ever tried to do is get people to state what they do and do not like. But most people dont give it a chance and just say "I not like it a lot." And as you have said for years, that doesnt help anybody. So I keep asking and say things like "give an example please".

As you stated this is not my map. But Relic was cool enough to say "lets make the best with the known entities we have." So that was the goal. If Relic removes Angoville I don't care. If they are not going to remove it, shouldnt we try to make it as best we can?

We as a community should share AE's enthusiasm that this was the original COH map. And do what we can to make it the best it can be. But instead we have an angry mob with pitch forks and veto buttons who have played it maybe once and given no good reasons what would be better

I am all for transparency on this stuff. I do not want it to be backroom meetings with a few special people deciding the fate of the game for everyone. So I like to talk it out so we can all figure it out together. If I have to look like an idiot to get it going, I am ok with that.

So for Angoville I have so far:
1. Cresc - Boring.
2. Syraw - Likes it. Would like more standard VP layout.
3. Farlon - Feels like a labyrinth. Too many sight blockers.
4. Luciano - South cutoff house is OP. Sight blockers feel random.
5. Shadowlink - Thinks asymmetric design will be an issue when needing VPs. North house OP with vickers.
6. NorthWestFresh - says it is sucky. Have to agree.
7. VonIvan - Veto?
8. Anon top player - Cutoff house needs to go. Too many sight blockers.
9. AE - Remove the map.
10. Blvckdream - Remove the map.
11. GIaA - Remove the map.
12. Skemshead - Too many sight blockers.

EDIT: This list last updated 12/2/2018

Another question that could be answered by stats is balance for factions. If the North is super OP, the win rates will be very even by faction. Because 50% of the time you will get the North spawn.

So for Angoville I have so far:
1. Cresc - Boring.
2. Syraw - Likes it.
3. Farlon - Feels like a labyrinth. Too many sight blockers.
4. Luciano - South cutoff house is OP. Sight blockers feel random.
5. Shadowlink - Thinks asymmetric design will be an issue when needing VPs. North house OP with vickers.

Boring isn't feedback

I agree with most of their sentiments on this too. The issue is that everyone I've talked to has played on it, and thats why they don't like it. (Von, Tali, ect

I do not share the sentiment that the map is a vcoh legendary map. That's great. It can stay in customs.

Thats just leaving the map in rotation for the sake of having it in rotation. Should we bring back montagris for 4v4? Semois for 1v1/2v2? Sturzdorf? The Scheldt?

The issue is that everyone I've talked to has played on it, and thats why they don't like it. (Von, Tali, ect

This is just too funny to comment on. Von played it tonight and acted like he had never seen it before and had no idea how to play it.

Another question that could be answered by stats is balance for factions. If the North is super OP, the win rates will be very even by faction. Because 50% of the time you will get the North spawn.

Maybe. Perhaps we compile our own data on the maps that I hear are universally bad. We could run a tournament? Just a small weekend thing for each map in question? Not sure.

As remember it isn't just top 100 that is playing automatch. There are plenty of people that play casually that don't veto anything.

Edit: Thats cause von always vetos it rofl for years, and i literally just talked to him about it tonight LUL

Regarding the symmetry: I think there are two options

1. Each base has a side (their fuel, muni, etc.). In that case it should be for both bases equally possible to defend their stuff and as well equally possible to attack the other side (technically a point symmetry around the center). Most maps are done this way (although one weakness of the approach is that that has to be true for every matchup, which is tricky. But I digress...).

2. There are two completely different sides (ideally with equal "value" however you determine that). The layout of these, then should be roughly mirrored across the central line so that both bases have the equal opportunity to compete for either of the sides.

Now, Angoville clearly was of the second type with the houses and the 2 Vps on the right and the open fields on the left. The new sector layout, however, seems to be more of the first type (with the exception of the extra territory as Tric laid out):

For example, North has it easier to connect to the right because there is basically no cut-off there as there are two paths to connect to the right fuel while South has the notorious cut-off there. For the left side, the situation is reversed: South has two options to connect to the fuel, North has one cut-off.

I don't think this approach to sector symmetry goes well with having two very different sides. Given that very different character of the sides are the main feature of the map, the sector layout should be more or less mirrored across the front line.

I just love how this map was the 5th most played map, now its even better, and everyone is complaining. Classic COH2 community. From all of your arguments, it would be inferred to just remove 1v1 automatch from the game

4v4 foreva

It is too early to say anything definite (I found that it takes a while after any map rotation before numbers stablized), but as a teaser: It currently ranks no. 8 out of the 12 maps in automatch in terms of games played. Out of all maps it features the worst win-rates for both UKF and USF.

Who cares about 1vs1 lol 4vs4 is soul of coh

Lets spend more manpower, time and Relic resources on the same old maps and again, again, again.

Classic CoH community.

I still prefer my version. (See link in sig.)

...

It is too early to say anything definite (I found that it takes a while after any map rotation before numbers stablized), but as a teaser: It currently ranks no. 8 out of the 12 maps in automatch in terms of games played. Out of all maps it features the worst win-rates for both UKF and USF.

Interesting. Thanks Siphon!

Ango is bad map for 2v2 from the begining, all time that she was so long, its coh1 player lobby and nostalgia from another players. Semoskie summer or winter are better.

I know two players that may not like Angoville. They just played on it for 79 minutes. VP score 19-0.

That is my impression so far is that matches seem to last on it. Even on matches where one player has lost several squads. They still have a chance by capping.

EDIT: So 1v1 casters will not like this map clearly

Do we have any good stats for points taken during a match. Guessing that Angoville's points taken is 60-80 per match.

I know two players that may not like Angoville. They just played on it for 79 minutes. VP score 19-0.

That is my impression so far is that matches seem to last on it. Even on matches where one player has lost several squads. They still have a chance by capping.

EDIT: So 1v1 casters will not like this map clearly

Do we have any good stats for points taken during a match. Guessing that Angoville's points taken is 60-80 per match.

Not sure if points are listed (I have to check tomorrow, leaning towards NO), but I certainly can check if matches take longer on the map...

Not sure if points are listed (I have to check tomorrow, leaning towards NO), but I certainly can check if matches take longer on the map...

Thanks! Dont do too much work. I think your stats are the only thing in the game that people agree on

I was just wondering aloud to see if people have a feel for those stats.

What do long matches say about the map? Points are too easy to defend? Is it a symptom of the right side VPs being so close together?

How many point captures/changes are normal for a 1v1 map? Is 70 an indicator that the map is too large? Or an indicator that the sight blockers are doing what they are intended to do?

GENERAL OBSERVATIONS
As previously stated, each player gets one VP right side and they battle for the left VP the rest of the game until someone loses so much army value that the right side gets taken as well.

If the losing player is soviet it is usually because their tanks under perform. The T70 keeps them in the game then they have nothing. T34/76 gets beat by P4. KV1 or IS2 lose to panthers, KT, or Gren blobs. If they go conscripts they need the AI of those tanks to help. Maxims under perform and just get run over late game.

Quite frankly I believe you're trying to glean far too much information out of the data.

I don't think it's wise to draw too strong of a conclusion that people feel a certain way or another about playing on a map, especially when there no way to measure how much players enjoyed their time playing on it.

I think it would be worth reminding yourself of the following:

Whether or not a map is balanced can be fairly objective, and within the control of the mapper. This is the objective of testing a map: determine if it is balanced or not. Opinions of the map outside of balance (aesthetics, etc) should be considered secondary. Some people like long games, some people dont, but it's got to be balanced or length really doesn't matter now does it?

That said: Is the game that's being played on it balanced? Objectively so? This is not in control of the mapper, and can easily and excessively influence opinions of a map. Take criticism and the inevitable contradictory confusion with this context in mind.

Yeah, agree on the game length. I don't think long games are generally viewed as undesirable. Sure, certain players don't like them, neither do tournament organizers, but a lot of other players would call the game that you mention above "Epic!!11" and are happy that the late game units - which often enter the field when the game is almost over - are actually used a lot.

The stats for maps that you show above were captured when Langreskaya still had the two VPs tucked away and was generally considered to force long matches. Furthermore, it was thought to favor axis and had the funny hedgerow south of the center. Still, it was the most played map at the time...

Quite frankly I believe you're trying to glean far too much information out of the data.

Long matches to me says it was balanced and fun for the players. The map does not seem to punish you for losses the way many other 1v1 maps do. Some games are over after you lose one engagement.

But that is just my lone opinion. I am fishing for other opinions. Looking for some sage comments from players on past maps, etc.

A handful of random Angoville games I watched today:



Super small sample size but wanted to share for interest.
Average game time: 41.6 minutes
WINS South: 7/11
WINS North: 4/11
WINS ratio OST: 2/6
WINS ratio OKW: 1/5
WINS ratio USF: 4/5
WINS ratio SOV: 3/4
WINS ratio BRT: 1/2

Matches followed the ranks of the players. The one exception Lev 9 beat Lev 11 was due to Lev 11 building sniper and having slow capping.

Lower ranked players played safely at the end which led to longer matches (70, 72 minutes).

Players with best defensive play gained strength at the end when it was fighting over a single VP.

Players that made snipers or indirect seemed to have the hardest time. Unless indirect was M8 scot.

OKW players had a better time if they got their tier (3/4) up on a right side VP.

EDIT: I tried twice to play 1v1 and get Angoville. Got Langreskaya and Crossroads instead