Angoville Discussion

Making this to move the discussion out of the shoutbox.

VCoH Angoville



With the lack of Truesight, and the older mechanic of high/medium/low muntions/fuel points, this creates several issues.

The main play around this map was always about defending your cutoffs to keep your fuel income up (while harassing your opponents)

Playing from the North was favorable if you could secure the cutoff in the southeast to block your opponent off. The inverse was true for the south, as they would want to take the cutoff to the north west, however with no building watching the cutoff, it was far easier to hold.

Therefore the dominant play was always around the south east cutoff for BOTH players. If North grabbed it and held, it would net them map advantage, and then transition into a tech advantage.

Old Angoville Coh2


Important to note:

Right side has 5 territory points, 1 fuel, 1 munition, 2 vps

Left side 5 territory points, 1 fuel, 1 munition, 1 vp

New Angoville CoH2


New layout has many things changed, buildings, sight blockers, and territory points.

Right side has 4 territory points, 1 fuel, 1 munitions, 2 vps

Left side has 6 territory points, 1 fuel, 1 munitions, 1 vp

Also important to note that the cutoff in the south east still exists, and it still has a dominant building right on top of it. The cutoff "mimic" in the north east now has the same thing. HOWEVER. The northern cutoff is far more ineffective as it does not overlook the actual cutoff that it does in the south. This leads to dominance from the north base, as they have more tools that are far more effective from the map itself to cutoff the south spawns resources in the east.
Also important to note the the LoS blocking medium crush wall in the south was removed and than mimicked in the north (good change imo).

Now depending on faction, you will never want to go to the east if you lose the first engagement. There are far more resources on the left side. This might sound good, but it actually lends itself to axis. As the western side is primarily long to medium range engagements. This would also slightly help out brits, but since they have no native garrison clears... most brits would be vetoing this map regardless as it has 8 garrisons (one garrison on the minimap can't be accessed), therefore it has 2 less than the original port.

The other thing is that in the west the northern base ALWAYS has a free point connected to their base, even if the cutoff is contested and the south does not. Slightly favoring the North side. This is compounded by the fact that if they lose the south east building near their cutoff the also lose the entire east side. Whereas the north does not. So overall the map will favor north spawns, and devolve into rushing the cutoff buildings.

Below is a picture to clarify what I am talking about.



(important to note I am showing how the territory SHOULD be in the east, but it isn't for some reason, it also could be in the south west mimicked like this, as another option.)


This issues, are multiple for me on this map, as I detailed above (bear with me it is late for me and I tend to ramble in long posts). I am sure I missed a few things, but I really can't remember the last time I played this map (where the game wasn't over at 20minutes), so I am trying to talk to the multiple iterations it has had this far.

Not that it can't be fixed. Is that it is no longer angoville with these changes (lost its soul as I say). It SHOULD be an all new map, done by the person that did the work on this. (aka Rosbone) As to my knowledge these are changes he wanted to make and was told no by the powers that be.

This post pretty much describes Angoville problems imo. South cutoff building still problem. Specially for those factions that dont have a non doctrinal flamethrower. I want to add that the elevations still a problem, and for some reason new sightblockers have been added in some annoying spots

This post pretty much describes Angoville problems imo. South cutoff building still problem. Specially for those factions that dont have a non doctrinal flamethrower. I want to add that the elevations still a problem, and for some reason new sightblockers have been added in some annoying spots

Sight blockers come after whether or not it is worth making a new map. I should've added a poll. I'd rather just see a new map altogether designed after angoville from Rosbone. As I think he would do a good job, the issue is communicating that to Andy.

Biggest problem IMO is just the general asymmetric sides of the map. One side being heavily litered with sightblockers, garrisons, etc while the other is more open. The VP problem still persists though, regardless of whether or not you go left and are able to capitalize on more resources, you are still required to go right inorder to capture VPs. This gives an noticeable advantage to the faction that can clear garrisons without much struggle(EFA).

The northern garrison with a vickers can overlook both the left side cutoff, a large portion of the souths pushing area as well as the right side. It's even worse with vickers vet.

In all honesty people will always complain about this games balance, and I don't mean just the rank 5k 4v4 scrubs who know nothing except fussi spam with offizier. The game is just a massive clash of ideas vs creativity vs balance and it'll never be perfect. Symmetric maps 100% or not at all.

Biggest problem IMO is just the general asymmetric sides of the map. One side being heavily litered with sightblockers, garrisons, etc while the other is more open. The VP problem still persists though, regardless of whether or not you go left and are able to capitalize on more resources, you are still required to go right inorder to capture VPs. This gives an noticeable advantage to the faction that can clear garrisons without much struggle(EFA).

The northern garrison with a vickers can overlook both the left side cutoff, a large portion of the souths pushing area as well as the right side. It's even worse with vickers vet.

All you did was agree with me LUL. But with a specific example. And yes, the vet 1 vickers in any garrison is a pain cause it sees so damn far, but lets be honest... do you really ever see brits on this map? And we could really start to split hairs here and say, is this a faction balance problem, map balance problem, or a bit of both?

In all honesty people will always complain about this games balance, and I don't mean just the rank 5k 4v4 scrubs who know nothing except fussi spam with offizier. The game is just a massive clash of ideas vs creativity vs balance and it'll never be perfect. Symmetric maps 100% or not at all.

Well I proved what you are saying with the the symmetric vs asymmetric argument almost 3 years ago.

Cutoff layout like this makes games last less than 5 minutes and then this vp layout make games last more than 1h LUL

Cutoff layout like this makes games last less than 5 minutes and then this vp layout make games last more than 1h LUL

IMO the VP layout is not a problem as much as where they are located on the map and their surroundings. You have plenty of maps that have "safe" VPS, and you could move them a bit futher back so they are not so close to one another, but they are typically in a straight line down the middle. This really boils down to because it is easier to lay a map out like this.

The real issue is the fact that they are located on the far side surrounded by buildings, and have an asymmetric cutoff layout that directly favors one base over the other.

Like I said, I think a new map with this layout and some changes to buildings and LoS blockers and the map will be fine, this will also allow us to help mitigate the negative cover retreat path and some of the height issues.

Here is the overhead with some explainations about why sight blockers are where they are.

1. Some of the large buildings were moved to the right of the map to keep the look alive. They were then surrounded by sight blockers so they are not over powered.
- North houses have limited sight by the yellow lined hedgerows.
- South houses have limited sight by the green lined hedgrows.

2. The dark red lined hedges are so that a single MG cannot cover the whole right side of the map. The MG will have to be microed to be effective. And most MGs will get flanked thru the muni passages (as Jove did when he played it).

3. The large trees and the verticle shed (RED X's) should be removed. They create a little too much sight block and I have never seen anyone put units in the shed for sight or to attack the fuel.

4. The blue lined areas are buildings and heavy cover to attack the cutoff house. The purple hedgerows are also kept tight to the house for safe flame or grenade attacks to the cutoff house.

5. The sight blockers on the LEFT side are all designed to decrease MG dominance and allow you to select the engagement distance you want to take. The old map had ZERO sight blockers on 85% of the map. None on this side at all. Like Crossroads you approach the hedge from the distance and angle you want. Sturms get close to the hedge then come around it. Volks stay away from the hedge and move around it to get sight and select your longer attack entry. After you see whats is there you can fall back behind the sight blocker and approach from a different angle or wait for another squad to assist the push. There are no "random" sight blockers no the map.

Purple hedges need to be placed along the building to the north to afford the same opportunities, and the building moved in. This also should lead to the south east cutoff being put in the north east.

OR

You put the buildings on the other side of the road from the north end to mimic the cutoff and its layout in the south east. (which would just make two buildings to rush instead of one), but at least than it would be fairer.

Never ever put large trees in a map ever. They should all be deleted out of all maps. They aren't even heavy crushable. So I agree with removing them. Sight blockers on the west would need testing, but should allow you to move along a bit better... BUT it would still favor axis largely.

Purple hedges need to be placed along the building to the north to afford the same opportunities, and the building moved in. This also should lead to the south east cutoff being put in the north east.

The building in the north has no value. Thus it does not need the hedgerow attack point. It covers one TP. It also has three green cover points and a shed surrounding it (Jove picked the shed). If someone camps an MG in there that is one less unit you have to deal with. You win.

The building in the north has no value. Thus it does not need the hedgerow attack point. It covers one TP. It also has three green cover points and a shed surrounding it (Jove picked the shed). If someone camps an MG in there that is one less unit you have to deal with. You win.

It has no value cause the cutoffs are not symmetrical and the current layout is unbalanced favoring the north.

... regardless of whether or not you go left and are able to capitalize on more resources, you are still required to go right inorder to capture VPs.

In the matches I have watched, the left VP decides the game. Almost every game has been one each right side. Player that holds the left side wins. More games are needed for valid stats and better ranked players.

The northern garrison with a vickers can overlook both the left side cutoff, a large portion of the souths pushing area as well as the right side. It's even worse with vickers vet.

The vickers can see thru sight blockers to the left? Explain please. In testing the vickers could not see the left side of the map.

The vickers can see thru sight blockers to the left? Explain please. In testing the vickers could not see the left side of the map.

Sappers come with a super fun ability to just remove the hedges.

In the matches I have watched, the left VP decides the game. Almost every game has been one each right side. Player that holds the left side wins. More games are needed for valid stats and better ranked players.

Probably because it's easier to push left side with how open it is than pushing deeper right side for 2 vps. Also one of the northern houses has a very good MG arc onto top VP.

The vickers can see thru sight blockers to the left? Explain please. In testing the vickers could not see the left side of the map.

Sappers come with a super fun ability to just remove the hedges.

All you did was agree with me LUL. But with a specific example. And yes, the vet 1 vickers in any garrison is a pain cause it sees so damn far, but lets be honest... do you really ever see brits on this map? And we could really start to split hairs here and say, is this a faction balance problem, map balance problem, or a bit of both?



Well I proved what you are saying with the the symmetric vs asymmetric argument almost 3 years ago.

Sounds good to me. Make a thread about the map I've been playing Fortune on and I'll get
my disagreements in.

...

That picture though 4Head.

Don't worry, the map you feed all your units to fortune on will never see automatch.

The old SMC ones might be getting reworked for that though. So there will be some posts about those in the coming days, once I here from Andy. Also a few 2v2 maps.

Sappers come with a super fun ability to just remove the hedges.

Do you have pictures or video of this amazing action? So I can recreate it. Sappers can destroy cover in order to make room for emplacements. But they dont seem to like blowing up lone hedgerow objects.

EDIT: I got them to blow the hedges from the right side but not from the left side. Still investigating.

EDIT 2: I got it working, They are very picky as to where you put it. Too close and they wont do it. Must be using the impass/cover array. Click to close and you are in impass zone and they wont setup the demo.

Do you have pictures or video of this amazing action? So I can recreate it. Sappers can destroy cover in order to make room for emplacements. But they dont seem to like blowing up lone hedgerow objects.

EDIT: I got them to blow the hedges from the right side but not from the left side. Still investigating.

EDIT 2: I got it working, They are very picky as to where you put it. Too close and they wont do it. Must be using the impass/cover array. Click to close and you are in impass zone and they wont setup the demo.

Don't forget you can also do this with an attack ground bofors.

This is important to note because then you can get maximum cancer strats like on south spawn on langres

Edit: Just tested you can see your cutoff and the strat point near the north with bofors. It is also super easy to do at the point in the game unless you are losing drastically, as it is so close to the base.

So you can set up far forward on the hedge line and attack ground through the house if they go to cap.

OR

You can set it back with 1-2 demos and have it cover your western cutoff and about 70% of the strat point the east.

So not as cancer as south langres, but still could be abused. Just need a player like burmie on this and it will be 1hour long match where he camps basically in the middle of the map with emplacements.

Edit 2: This is also why the ability needs to cost munitions. Right now it is free which is fucking insane on a 1sec (?) cooldown.

One possible change would be cliff objects with sight blockers. About the only object demos will not blow up.

One possible change would be cliff objects with sight blockers. About the only object demos will not blow up.

Sure that could but then its even more not Angoville. Could just remake this, call it something else and fix all the core issues without having our hands held back because the changes won't be allowed.

If not it will stay in the same category of Arnhem, Lost Glider, and Caen.

I just love how this map was the 5th most played map, now its even better, and everyone is complaining. Classic COH2 community. From all of your arguments, it would be inferred to just remove 1v1 automatch from the game

4v4 foreva