USF Teching Costs

You can test the mod here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357

That's included.

"M20 Utility Car, AAHT, Stuart -> requires Grenades, Racks, or two Officers to build"

Lieutenant and Major, Captain and Major or Lieutenant and Captain should all do it.

Ah, okay, great, in that case it's perfectly what you described.

Then the fuel cost needs to come down further. Allowing LT as the third unit's the whole point.

The problem there is that using the weapon racks as a prerequisite doesn't work if the fuel cost is slashed below 15. It'd need a third Motor Pool sidetech.

How low does it need to go?

Well, my games against the ai are not very representative, so I'd suggest games with actual players to determine that. I sent the link to OrangePest, maybe I could get him to play a couple of matches. The better the players that test the mod, the easier it will be to find the right balance.

You can also try to do a couple of games yourself by subscribing to the mod and doing a couple of games with friends or a skirmish

• Third sidetech in HQ: Motor Pool. Costs 30 FU.
  
• M20 Utility Car, AAHT, Stuart, Major: Requires the Motor Pool unlock to build.

What USF (and OKW) have always needed is a Supply Yard tier. And to be honest, so did the EFA factions.

That tier could've housed upgrades to:

Increase vet rate
Decrease reinforce costs
Upgrade vet bonuses
Passive resource income upgrades

And so on. (Unlock vet 4/5)

One could also ramp up the cost of USF Weapon Racks to 80 fuel, but make bazookas and BARs free.

You can test the mod here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357

That'd look something like this:

• Lieutenant: 200 MP 50 FU -> 280 MP 20 FU
  
• Captain: 200 MP 60 FU -> 280 MP 30 FU
  
• Major: 240 MP 120 FU -> 160 MP 120 FU
  
  
• Third sidetech in HQ: Motor Pool. Costs 30 FU.
  
• M20 Utility Car, AAHT, Stuart, Major: Requires the Motor Pool unlock to build.

I'll try implement this.

I tried to lower lieutenant and captain cost by 10 each and then bumping up the cost for nades and racks by 5 each but the manpower cost to get a light vehicle out is quite a hindering factor. However, that put aside, 25 seems to be okay to make it work as the 3rd unit on the field.

I'll come back when I implemented your new suggestion.

At the risk of derailing my own thread, Volks STGs were designed such that they do have an ideal combat range versus enemy infantry: the opposite of the enemy's ideal range. If I remember what Mr. Smith said correctly, they're meant to be able to fight Guards and Infantry Sections close up and to fight Riflemen and Conscripts at range. That's why their overall curve is so odd.

That is a bad design. The "relative positioning work best when both weapons have an optimum range that is different, then the effect can be maximized.

In addition this is part of the current issues with USF, they where meant to have the best infantry for the time frame. Now simply the do not, that combined with nerfs to their light vehicles is killing the original design of the faction, so in my opinion either the other faction need to nerfed or USF redesigned.

Giving access to more support weapons with the proposed changes will make USF too strong against Ostheer who are actually pretty bad at flanking unless they are using doctrinal option.

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IMO current lethality in general isn’t a huge problem. Adjust it as a blanket concept (as in increasing/decreasing general time to kills and dps and the like across the board to change the “degree” of lethality in general in the game) significantly and you have a bunch of issues that come up with wiping, movement, balance of different dps types/models (i.e. moderately/significantly decrease dps as a whole and cqb infantry like rangers, shocks, and stormtroopers become stronger since they still move at the same speed and take the same time to close with the enemy but suffer less damage in the process and are much more likely to win more engagements, even ones that they shouldn’t, as a result). I just think it’d create more problems than it’d fix.
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It a big problem (maybe not huge), and guess what the RCP buff shocks and storm troopers because currently they are no cost efficient.

As I have explained if a fire fight has sort duration there is little input from players and far less tactics involved and it boiled down to who drop the first model. Units like Penal and SP in their current form simply should appear before minute 1. In addition weapon like SVT and VG ST with sort of linear curves should not be their or they should have other limitations.


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The reason I continue bringing this issues up, is not to derail the thread, but imo the problems of the USF have derive directly from the performance of riflemen and messing with tech cost might solve some issues but it will create more and it will force more axis unit to be buffed.

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The reason I continue bringing this issues up, is not to derail the thread, but imo the problems of the USF have derive directly from the performance of riflemen and messing with tech cost might solve some issues but it will create more and it will force more axis unit to be buffed.

So in order to make USF better, let's nerf rifles. Vipper's logic.

Tested the mod, seems decent so far, not sure if I'm a fan of the forced nade tech, but it's probably necessary due to timings. (otherwise, you could have some stupidly early LVHs.)
Not keen on the major teching cost either, i always feel like it's not worth teching up due to the lackluster performance of the sherman (and you could just as easily get a pershing instead) so something could be done there.

But honestly USFs main issue is that the riflemen aren't that good anymore and the weird teching that forces you to pick either captain or liuetenant, which means losing out on 50cal or at gun, my personal solution would be to put them both in your base building and having them be unlocked when you tech captain or lefty.

While we're on the subject of modding USF and their tech, I would propose making Riflemen about 10-20MP cheaper per squad so USF can have a faster start (especially against OKW) and then putting those saved MP (60, based on a standard 3x RM build) into the weapon racks tech. This would buff USF early game a bit while mid game cost/timing remains mostly the same.

So in order to make USF better, let's nerf rifles. Vipper's logic.

Try to read and understand before quoting me pls. I never said riflemen should be nerfed, on the contrary. Imo (if one does redesign the faction) riflemen should be the best infantry available for their time frame and that would probably mean nerfing or delaying ST, VG's ST44 (better removing or redesigning them) and Penals.

You can test v1.1 here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357

Update 1.1

Lieutenant: 20 FU, 260 MP, research time from 60 to 30
Captain: 30 FU, 260 MP, research time from 60 to 30

Light vehicles (including the m8 scott) now require the "Motor Pool" upgrade available in the first building together with the other global upgrades (racks and nades).

Motor pool: 30 FU, research time 30

Thoughts: This new structure allows a lot of new flexibility, lieutenant can be called in as the 3rd unit and an mg as the 4th, a build like that can potentially compensate for rifles shortcomings. It also allows to tech both lieutenant and captain for the same price as the old lieutenant but without the access to any light vehicles. It furthermore opens up a rush for sherman which could be attained at a 30 FU discount if only lieutenant an no light vehicles are researched (which is high risk, potentially high reward).

I locked the Scott behind the "Motor Pool" because it is a light vehicle and, more importantly, since the scott doesn't have to expose itself to at gun fire and one usually has to dive for it, so hitting the field 30 FU earlier might be too powerful.

Tested the mod, seems decent so far, not sure if I'm a fan of the forced nade tech, but it's probably necessary due to timings. (otherwise, you could have some stupidly early LVHs.)

Thanks for taking a look, I think the new idea which is now implemented addresses many of the points you make. Riflemen's poor performance could be offset by the added flexibility. The new tech structure, depending on the choices of the player, also makes major a bit cheaper, if the access to light vehicles is sacrificed.

While we're on the subject of modding USF and their tech, I would propose making Riflemen about 10-20MP cheaper per squad so USF can have a faster start (especially against OKW) and then putting those saved MP (60, based on a standard 3x RM build) into the weapon racks tech. This would buff USF early game a bit while mid game cost/timing remains mostly the same.

The new teching opens up a lot of possibilities. I also think it is important to keep the changes as small as possible. I'm not even sure if anything can be done about usf at this point :/

That'd look something like this:

• Lieutenant: 200 MP 50 FU -> 280 MP 20 FU
  
• Captain: 200 MP 60 FU -> 280 MP 30 FU
  
• Major: 240 MP 120 FU -> 160 MP 120 FU
  
  
• Third sidetech in HQ: Motor Pool. Costs 30 FU.
  
• M20 Utility Car, AAHT, Stuart, Major: Requires the Motor Pool unlock to build.

I did one small change, which is to not bind major to motor pool, since I find that it would open up a lot more diverse builds like lieu -> captain -> major (for the same cost as the old lieu -> major) or lieu, motor pool -> major or captain -> major or captain -> motor pool -> major. Maybe this opens up too much flexibility but things like that can always be changed.

If the 30 FU discount is too much, I would tie major to lieu + capt or lieu + motor pool or capt + motor pool instead of officer + motor pool. That way the old cost structure is the same but there is the additional option to go both officers without light vehicles for the same price as going one officer with light vehicles.

If anyone has some time and is interested to do a couple of test games, please let me know

I still think the m20 shouldnt be unlocked at the same time as the AAHT and Stuart as it gets overshadowed by those two. Maybe after LT but give it a higher price to prevent it from coming out to early?

I still think the m20 shouldnt be unlocked at the same time as the AAHT and Stuart as it gets overshadowed by those two. Maybe after LT but give it a higher price to prevent it from coming out to early?

The cost and time to unlock the m20 is the same except for the 60 MP that the lieu costs more now.