The very best part about this thread is ullumulu openly denying germany starting ww2.
Holy fuck, he literally went for super axis fanboy god blue here.
Generalist balance.
20 Sep 2018, 14:15 PM
#21
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
20 Sep 2018, 14:17 PM
#22
Posts: 1096
germany startet the 2ww? When iam right france and GB made it to a worldwar. (not one from them wantet to help poland...they wantet to beat germany again.) And why they didnt declare the war to russia...even russia declare poland the war and invaded them with germany? hm?
oh..yes germany lost the 2. ....against the half world....which needed 4 years Oo
Ok this paragraph is just an insult to those of us blessed with the gift of eyesight and common sense.
The only way the UK and France started WW2 was with the treaty of Versailles and by not being firm enough with Germany early on.
The Uk did not declare war against Russia as the alliance only covered the event of Germany attacking Poland unless I am mistaken.....also some nations have the common sense not to fight on multiple fronts when they don't have to unlike Germany.
20 Sep 2018, 14:19 PM
#24
Posts: 712
You have a misconception about the sherman. It handled pretty well panzer ivs irl, only struggled vs the heavies and the panthers (wich were pretty rare in the western front). In the game it does a decent job vs the ostheer p4 and struggles vs the okw one. Also, if we are considering irl stats we should consider the cost and the numbers. 5 shermans per panzer 4 at the same cost lol.
20 Sep 2018, 14:24 PM
#25
Posts: 1660
My point is, it wasnt different from Sherman pen which you claimed it to be, and I'm talking about actual pak40 not tank version on P4/Stug, which proves my point, normal AT gun with same caliber could not punch through hull of T-34 while gun with longer length and high velocity could, meaning that point "lol its overmatched 45mm" is invalid
If anything, as you can easily see, anti tank gun version had higher velocity due to the longer barrel, and so higher penetration. Overmatching is also factual
Like i said, t34/76 F-34 (if the model in game is L/40 one) could achieve 87mm of penetration with the best apbc shell at 500 ms, m3 75mm sherman m72 92mm.
The difference isn't huge, Can't really see why it should have better stats.
20 Sep 2018, 14:25 PM
#26
Posts: 573
And one more thing, penetration standarts were extemely lax on what is considered a "penetration" during WW2 in Germany and US/Britain, USSR had a certified penetration standards, when you convert to those you'll realize that German 75mm on P4 and Stugs actually struggled on distances 500-1000m meters vs T-34.
Penetrating enemy tank on paper which has 50% penetration standard is quite different than doing it in real life.
Penetrating enemy tank on paper which has 50% penetration standard is quite different than doing it in real life.
20 Sep 2018, 14:34 PM
#27
Posts: 1660
And one more thing, penetration standarts were extemely lax on what is considered a "penetration" during WW2 in Germany and US/Britain, USSR had a certified penetration standards, when you convert to those you'll realize that German 75mm on P4 and Stugs actually struggled on distances 500-1000m meters vs T-34. Penetrating enemy tank on paper which has 50% penetration standard is quite different than doing it in real life
We use the data we have got and that may even be inaccurate to some degree, but it is still the best way to measure this data.
If you have another objective criteria i'm all ears. That said, the calculator clearly shows that kwk 40 penetration of t34 with standard ammo wasn't sure beyond 500 ms.
I don't gethow that change anything in terms of overmatching.
20 Sep 2018, 14:38 PM
#28
Posts: 711
If p4 with it's gun was so excelent in penetration to t-34, why germans tried to install panther gun on it? Why in production went such tanks as panther, p4/70? What was in a paper and in a real life, was quite different. And i think comparsion long barrel p4 and t34-76 not good. Let's compare p4 with t34-85? One last mention about p4, in game OKW have J model it was cheaper downgraded version of H model. It had only manual option to rotate turret (you even could read about it in Karius book). Version H had hydrauvlic engine. Game and real life very distinct things.
20 Sep 2018, 14:43 PM
#29
Posts: 573
Here in some the data with Russian penetration standards, all relevant guns are there aside of Firefly and Shermans 76mm. Its in Russian but you still can easily figure out guns by caliber.
Those are actual realistic values guns had in real life not "it might pen 50% at this range"
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/03/penetration.html
Those are actual realistic values guns had in real life not "it might pen 50% at this range"
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/03/penetration.html
20 Sep 2018, 14:45 PM
#30
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Also, if we are considering irl stats we should consider the cost and the numbers. 5 shermans per panzer 4 at the same cost lol.
Actually most sources put the production cost of a Sherman and a Panzer IV at about the same amount ($46.000). Later variants of the Sherman are even as expensive as the Panther ($60.000). Though obviously the U.S. war economy could simply produce more tanks and at a faster rate.
20 Sep 2018, 14:46 PM
#31
Posts: 2243
The very best part about this thread is ullumulu openly denying germany starting ww2.
Holy fuck, he literally went for super axis fanboy god blue here.
maybe u shouldnt only read the school history books.
try to start with the british Historician Alan John Percivale Taylor..
20 Sep 2018, 14:51 PM
#32
Posts: 1660
You have a misconception about the sherman. It handled pretty well panzer ivs irl, only struggled vs the heavies and the panthers (wich were pretty rare in the western front). In the game it does a decent job vs the ostheer p4 and struggles vs the okw one. Also, if we are considering irl stats we should consider the cost and the numbers. 5 shermans per panzer 4 at the same cost lol.
Aside from being quite offtopic I think you have misconcemptions about ww2
The upgunned and uparmored Panzer 4 costed exactly the same as the basic Sherman, Ez8 costed only 10 thousand US dollars less than Panther G, the most expensive one.
http://knowledgeglue.com/cost-ww2-vehicles/
I don't know where i exactly implied it shouldn't handle P4.
20 Sep 2018, 14:57 PM
#33
Posts: 1660
Here in some the data with Russian penetration standards, all relevant guns are there aside of Firefly and Shermans 76mm. Its in Russian but you still can easily figure out guns by caliber.
Those are actual realistic values guns had in real life not "it might pen 50% at this range"
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/03/penetration.html
Both russians and german criteria have been disproved, the most accurate is the British standard and has been the golden standard for days. You won't find a single serious place where russians and german criteria are used.
Add to that the fact that people called bullshit on TankArchives for years now and even the blogger define himself as "russian biased".
Just to give you an idea, in the comments he admits that the report of scarvanges equipment test by Soviet army DOES NOT contain data about the weariness of the equipment, and yet he use this as reliable source to contest actual firing range tests from Germans in well specified conditions.
You get it ? IT IGNORES the data about scarvenged battle worn equipment conditions and still fail to present any reason why soviet tests should be more accurate or even correct than German ones, with well documented conditions and with a barrel in good condition.
20 Sep 2018, 15:04 PM
#34
Posts: 1660
@ullumullu @katitof
We don't really care about who started a brawl 75 years ago. Do we ?
We don't really care about who started a brawl 75 years ago. Do we ?
20 Sep 2018, 15:13 PM
#35
Posts: 712
Aside from being quite offtopic I think you have misconcemptions about ww2
The upgunned and uparmored Panzer 4 costed exactly the same as the basic Sherman, Ez8 costed only 10 thousand US dollars less than Panther G, the most expensive one.
http://knowledgeglue.com/cost-ww2-vehicles/
I don't know where i exactly implied it shouldn't handle P4.
lol you said that the game version has higher penetration than that it should. That implies that it will struggle even more vs a panzer 4
If they costed the same why the american tanks came in much larger numbers? lol
Check the chieftain videos, you will understand what misconceptions im talking about
20 Sep 2018, 15:14 PM
#36
Posts: 712
Actually most sources put the production cost of a Sherman and a Panzer IV at about the same amount ($46.000). Later variants of the Sherman are even as expensive as the Panther ($60.000). Though obviously the U.S. war economy could simply produce more tanks and at a faster rate.
You cant only talk about the cost of the unit in $$$ you also need to see the logisctics cost, the materials available, its not that simple
20 Sep 2018, 15:15 PM
#37
Posts: 1660
You cant only talk about the cost of the unit in $$$ you also need to see the logisctics cost, the materials available, its not that simple
I think you are just deflecting.
20 Sep 2018, 15:19 PM
#38
Posts: 573
You're in severe wehraboo denial man, this data shows how German uber-guns were actually only uber on paper. Claiming "it's biased" when it was internal document for engineers is hilarious
20 Sep 2018, 15:20 PM
#39
Posts: 712
I think you are just deflecting.
Deflecting what? You are saying that sherman has to have less penetration in game, that would be nuts since it struggles vs okw p4
20 Sep 2018, 15:23 PM
#40
Posts: 1660
Deflecting what? You are saying that sherman has to have less penetration in game, that would be nuts since it struggles vs okw p4
Why don't you actually read OP before commenting ? Look at the changes that both Panzer 4 go through.
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