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russian armor

Generalist balance.

20 Sep 2018, 15:26 PM
#41
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



Fun fact: some dude in official war thunder forums proved that 1941 t34 and 1942 t34 were so poorly welded that plates could fall off even with 37mm NON pen, devs questioned its theory but the guy proved it, and devs banned him after losing the argument.

The outrage after this happened made them remove king tiger modifier tho ahahah, and later the Maus modifiers were removed as well


Lol! That doesn't surprise me at all. They are so freaking biased that it is just funny. Chaika rekting bf109s was funny too lol.
20 Sep 2018, 15:33 PM
#42
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2018, 15:19 PMKirrik
You're in severe wehraboo denial man, this data shows how German uber-guns were actually only uber on paper. Claiming "it's biased" when it was internal document for engineers is hilarious


Again, like i said "internal documents for engineers" that report very limited testing of battle worn equipment by foreigners, with no mantainance whatsoever of barrel or shells and without a single word on the condition of the ammo batch, using a criteria that has been ditched because considered inaccurate since cold war, by a blog run by a russian nationalist that fail to actually show proper sources to his readers in the comment section.

But you can't possibly see any issue in this.
Instead every other source but old russian test using a criteria not EVEN MODERN DAY RUSSIA USES are wrong and humanity elected as golden standard for penetration the wrong criteria...obviously...
20 Sep 2018, 15:34 PM
#43
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 712

My point is, dont try to balance the game around real life stuff, it doesnt work in company of heroes. Mediums are quite balanced, they dont need to be changed that much.
20 Sep 2018, 15:37 PM
#44
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



Lol! That doesn't surprise me at all. They are so freaking biased that it is just funny. Chaika rekting bf109s was funny too lol.


Well, it made King Tiger playable at the very least.

Anyway that's another game.

Ps: I don't think they kept the russian bias tho, mainly because the whole aphe meta and french and UK tanks being nerfed into oblivion backfired.

Righ now the game is trying to survive with 20k players.
20 Sep 2018, 15:37 PM
#45
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



Again, like i said "internal documents for engineers" that report very limited testing of battle worn equipment by foreigners, with no mantainance whatsoever of barrel or shells and without a single word on the condition of the ammo batch, using a criteria that has been ditched because considered inaccurate since cold war, by a blog run by a russian nationalist that fail to actually show proper sources to his readers in the comment section.

But you can't possibly see any issue in this.
Instead every other source but old russian test using a criteria not EVEN MODERN DAY RUSSIA USES are wrong and humanity elected as golden standard for penetration the wrong criteria...obviously...


What the heck are you talking about, Russian army still uses different penetration standards, you still cant directly compare values between NATO and Russian/Soviet ammo

Furthermore, it not only German AT guns were tested but also British and US, those showed far less pen by Russian criteria... let me guess, Russians used scravenged ammo and terribly worn-down barrels too when they performed these tests?
20 Sep 2018, 15:39 PM
#46
avatar of Loxley

Posts: 223

83.500 lost soviet tanks in ww2 show, that german guns were not only good "on paper".
20 Sep 2018, 15:42 PM
#47
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

Are you nuts? Thats number is more than number of tanks that was produced in total.
20 Sep 2018, 15:49 PM
#48
avatar of Loxley

Posts: 223

No, they produced around 120k tanks and got 20k tanks from USA by lendlease.
20 Sep 2018, 16:00 PM
#49
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2018, 15:37 PMKirrik


What the heck are you talking about, Russian army still uses different penetration standards, you still cant directly compare values between NATO and Russian/Soviet ammo

Furthermore, it not only German AT guns were tested but also British and US, those showed far less pen by Russian criteria... let me guess, Russians used scravenged ammo and terribly worn-down barrels too when they performed these tests?

I don't know what results came out, to what degree they differed from actual british values and under what conditions those trial have been made. What i know is that there are huge portions of important data that are missing in those tests, by the very admission of the author. Stop deflecting to avoid addressing the blatantly obvious issue here


I don't know where i exactly said that Russians use the same criteria as Nato today =/
20 Sep 2018, 16:01 PM
#50
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

That the only Panzer 4 with a stub nose gun is the command p4 or that the 222 scout car is over twice it's actual size or that at guns and artillery are dragged by people and not horses should be indications that this game isn't going for complete accuracy.
20 Sep 2018, 16:07 PM
#51
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

That the only Panzer 4 with a stub nose gun is the command p4 or that the 222 scout car is over twice it's actual size or that at guns and artillery are dragged by people and not horses should be indications that this game isn't going for complete accuracy.

Well people have been complaining about both (especially 222).
20 Sep 2018, 16:14 PM
#52
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

120k tanks, is that some alternative facts wehraboos get at Stormfront? I just googled 80k "destroyed tanks" number and that does not even imply destroyed tanks. Thats number of vehicles out of action for whatever reason, including stuff like stuck in mud or detracked.
20 Sep 2018, 16:22 PM
#53
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2018, 16:14 PMKirrik
120k tanks, is that some alternative facts wehraboos get at Stormfront? I just googled 80k that number and that does not even imply destroyed tanks. Thats number of vehicles out of action for whatever reason, including stuff stuck in mud or detracked.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_losses_in_World_War_II

Not to be that guy, but being COMPLETELY UNAWARE of how much vehicles soviet have lost i just googled it and Krivosheev, a russian historian says that 83,500 soviet TANKS, much more being the vehicles.

" "All losses of arms and equipment are counted as irrecoverable losses, i.e. beyond economic repair or no longer serviceable" "

Loxley number is right, what about you actually address points politely instead of hurr durr-ing
20 Sep 2018, 16:28 PM
#54
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

These are not number of tanks destroyed, these are of armored vehicles out of action. You can lose same tank several times by having it detracked than towed for repairs, it does not even imply combat
And no wikipedia is not a good source on that sort of stuff, unless you can actually read these reports (I can, they are in Russian)
And no they are not about irrecoverable loses, those are just loses. (thats wikipedia for you, go and check winter war casualties article for even bigger fun)
20 Sep 2018, 16:32 PM
#55
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2018, 16:28 PMKirrik
These are not number of tanks destroyed, these are of armored vehicles out of action. You can lose same tank several times by having it detracked than towed for repairs, it does not even imply combat loses


I already pointed how it clearly SPECIFY tanks and tanks ONLY, and how losses are counted as such only as unrecoverable.

Is LITTERALLY in the post over yours...just admit you are trolling.
20 Sep 2018, 16:35 PM
#56
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

I just read source directly, those irrecoverable loses are for human casualties, not tanks. When dealing with tanks it just recites loses. Which is my point
20 Sep 2018, 16:36 PM
#57
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_losses_in_World_War_II

Not to be that guy, but being COMPLETELY UNAWARE of how much vehicles soviet have lost i just googled it and Krivosheev, a russian historian says that 83,500 soviet TANKS, much more being the vehicles.

" "All losses of arms and equipment are counted as irrecoverable losses, i.e. beyond economic repair or no longer serviceable" "

Loxley number is right, what about you actually address points politely instead of hurr durr-ing

Get some context.

Germany labeled vehicle as lost, when it was reduced to unsalvagable slag.

Soviets labeled vehicle as lost, when it has run out of fuel or lost track.
They also had tens of thousands of pre war light tanks, which they obviously lost.
20 Sep 2018, 16:37 PM
#58
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2018, 16:35 PMKirrik
I just read source directly, those irrecoverable loses are for human casualties, not tanks.

And yet the page is about EQUIPMENT...

Soviet Union
According to Grigori F. Krivosheev: "All losses of arms and equipment are counted as irrecoverable losses, i.e. beyond economic repair or no longer serviceable"[15]
83,500 tanks lost: 5,200 heavy tanks, 44,900 medium tanks, 33,400 light tanks (including 11,900 Lend-Lease tanks and self-propelled guns lost[16])
13,000 SPGs lost: 2,300 heavy SPGs, 2,100 medium SPGs, 8,600 light SPGs
37,600 Armoured car and half-track (including 5,000 Lend-Lease armoured personnel carriers lost[16])

Just quit trolling
20 Sep 2018, 16:40 PM
#59
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

For real? Do you even know that everyone can write everything in wikipedia? here is actual source in Russian. It deals mostly with human casualties during operations not vehicles loses
http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt
TL;DR Total amount of lost vehicles =/= amount of vehicles lost in combat, these are different things. Tanks and SPG's captured in early war after being dumped due to no fuel or ammo is also counted in there
20 Sep 2018, 16:43 PM
#60
avatar of konfucius

Posts: 129

wow this thread is deeply on the spectrum
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