Shifting around the OKW Heavy call ins.

So this was discussed months ago in other topics and since the preview mod has hit I think it's time it gets it's own dedicated thread.

So to begin, I really think that the Sturmtiger is an oddball in the Elite Armor doctrine, it's an assault gun/breakthrough type heavy vehicle that's made even better versus blobs in the preview mod but doesn't really have synergy with the rest of the doctrine I feel, unlike the Jagdtiger and the Panzerfusiliers in the Breakthrough Doctrine for example where they compliment each other because of the PF's flares giving the JT sight.

Now people have also expressed their thoughts about the Command Panther replacing the ST in Elite Armor but of course there is the problem there of the CP already being a good enough vehicle on it's own, coupled with the buffs and abilities Elite Armor offers it could become problematic unless the unit is tweaked in order to accompany it's new doctrine.

The way I see it, there are 3, perhaps 4 options right now.

First option is to switch out the Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger.

2nd option is to switch out the Sturmtiger, Command Panther and Jagdtiger. That would mean: Sturmtiger goes in Breakthrough, Command Panther goes in Elite Armor, and Jagdtiger goes in Special Operations, altho then the JT will be the oddball perhaps.

3rd option as suggested by Lago - "Command Panther to Breakthrough. Strongest call-in to weakest doctrine.
Sturmtiger to Special Operations. Weakest call-in to strongest doctrine.
Jadgtiger to Elite Armored. The Panzer Commander on another tank can spot for it, and HEAT is HEAT."

4rd option is replace the Sturmtiger with a Tiger, there are even voice lines for that and a StuG for the OKW. It would be a cheaper alternative than getting a King Tiger if you're in a pinch. Problem then is that the Sturmtiger will have no home, or maybe it could be put into Firestorm somehow? I really have no idea.

Command Panther to Breakthrough. Strongest call-in to weakest doctrine.
Sturmtiger to Special Operations. Weakest call-in to strongest doctrine.
Jadgtiger to Elite Armored. The Panzer Commander on another tank can spot for it, and HEAT is HEAT.

Command Panther to Breakthrough. Strongest call-in to weakest doctrine.
Sturmtiger to Special Operations. Weakest call-in to strongest doctrine.
Jadgtiger to Elite Armored. The Panzer Commander on another tank can spot for it, and HEAT is HEAT.

Hmmm, that works as well I guess, I'll add it as a 4th option.

I mean I thought about the Jagdtiger in Elite Armor as I already mentioned, but not the rest of what you wrote.

Reeeepost

Elite Armor
[2CP] Panzerfusiliers
Preferrably changed to a 5-man squad that comes already equipped with 2x G43s.

[2CP] Signal Relay

[4CP] Emergency Repairs
Changed to be either a copy of Soviet Crew Repairs or the British Smoke + Repair.

[7CP] NahVw
PzIV, Panther (not Command Panther), KT, and JgPzIV can launch either smoke (Psuedo USF-Style) or small frag grenades for self defense. Shared cooldowns.

[11CP] Call-in Command Panther
Comes equipped with a Panzer Commander (cannot get pintle MG42) and gains the artillery strike ability. Rate of fire nerfed to reflect its role as a support unit and justify the CP reduction.

Minor adjustment suggestion: Command Panther's Panzer Commander ducks back into turret when in combat just like Panzer IV Command Tank.

---

Breakthrough
[0CP] Breakthrough

[1CP Sturm Officer

[6CP]Call-in StuG IIIe
Replaces Panzerfusiliers.

[10CP] Assault Artillery
Changed to be an area target.

[13CP] Sturmtiger
Replaces Jagdtiger. Mutually Exclusive with King Tiger.

---

To account for Command Panther and Sturmtiger shuffle:

Special Operations
[14CP] Jagdtiger
Replaces Command Panther

Perhaps nerf arty flares so the synergy with Jagdtiger isn't too crazy.

Reeeepost

Elite Armor
[2CP] Panzerfusiliers
Preferrably changed to a 5-man squad that comes already equipped with 2x G43s.

[2CP] Signal Relay

[4CP] Emergency Repairs
Changed to be either a copy of Soviet Crew Repairs or the British Smoke + Repair.

[7CP] NahVw
PzIV, Panther (not Command Panther), KT, and JgPzIV can launch either smoke (Psuedo USF-Style) or small frag grenades for self defense. Shared cooldowns.

[11CP] Call-in Command Panther
Comes equipped with a Panzer Commander (cannot get pintle MG42) and gains the artillery strike ability. Rate of fire nerfed to reflect its role as a support unit and justify the CP reduction.

Minor adjustment suggestion: Command Panther's Panzer Commander ducks back into turret when in combat just like Panzer IV Command Tank.

---

Breakthrough
[0CP] Breakthrough

[1CP Sturm Officer

[6CP]Call-in StuG IIIe
Replaces Panzerfusiliers.

[10CP] Assault Artillery
Changed to be an area target.

[13CP] Sturmtiger
Replaces Jagdtiger. Mutually Exclusive with King Tiger.

---

To account for Command Panther and Sturmtiger shuffle:

Special Operations
[14CP] Jagdtiger
Replaces Command Panther

Perhaps nerf arty flares so the synergy with Jagdtiger isn't too crazy.

This is a good idea, however it would require far more than a simple reshuffle of the Heavy Tank call ins sadly.

The point is to find these tanks the correct doctrine without having to change much about the doctrine itself in order to not make it too OP or UP, but just right, and of course, to stick with the doctrine's theme.

Command Panther to Breakthrough. Strongest call-in to weakest doctrine.
Sturmtiger to Special Operations. Weakest call-in to strongest doctrine.
Jadgtiger to Elite Armored. The Panzer Commander on another tank can spot for it, and HEAT is HEAT.

Wait HEAT on the jt? Talk about overkill lol.

Actually it’d be kind of op cuz then it could 2 hit mediums again.

Wait HEAT on the jt? Talk about overkill lol.

Actually it’d be kind of op cuz then it could 2 hit mediums again.

With the current timer it would be lucky to even get 2 shots off.

Guys, Wehrmacht have 2 Elefant-Commanders and several Tiger I-Commanders, i don't understand why OKW can't have 2 Commanders with the same Heavy call in.
1. Commando Panther should stay in Special Operations (why change are working commander?) but give Commando Panther also to Breakthrough.
2. JT should go to Overwatch, Tiger I to Elite Armor. Problem solved.

Imagine Command Panther in a doctrine with a call in infantry or Command Panther using mark vehicule and HEAT round (or other tank using it on a marked enemy tank) - I already see that hate.

Would be interesting to test it out in a mod. Sadly it's highly unlikely Relic will do that.

A special OKW Tiger I (with panzer tactician smoke and pintle mount MG42 as standard) would be nice to replace the Sturmtiger in Elite Armor.

Moving the Command Panther to Elite Armor would fit the doctrine, but this would require an extra rebalance of its abilities because it would senergize too well with HEAT shells and Panzer Commander. The Tiger I call-in would be the easier (and more diverse/fun) option.

Then Sturmtiger could be moved to Special Operations, which would fit the doctrine theme very well.

Jagdtiger in Breakthrough is fine IMO. That doctrine would be good enough if Panzerfusiliers would get a CP reduction (to 0CP and make them buildable in T0 so they can serve as a strategic alternative to Volks) and the Assault Artillery was fixed (right now half its shells land outside the targeted sector).

Command Panther could perhaps be moved to Firestorm doctrine and replace the useless Leig incendiary ammo ability. This would give this doctrine a late game buff which it now lacks.

Guys, Wehrmacht have 2 Elefant-Commanders and several Tiger I-Commanders, i don't understand why OKW can't have 2 Commanders with the same Heavy call in.
1. Commando Panther should stay in Special Operations (why change are working commander?) but give Commando Panther also to Breakthrough.
2. JT should go to Overwatch, Tiger I to Elite Armor. Problem solved.

JT to Overwatch? What for exactly, besides it's synergy with the sight the doctrine gets?

Imagine Command Panther in a doctrine with a call in infantry or Command Panther using mark vehicule and HEAT round (or other tank using it on a marked enemy tank) - I already see that hate.

Would be interesting to test it out in a mod. Sadly it's highly unlikely Relic will do that.

Panzerfusiliers are basically replacement mainline infantry, so I don't see the problem with that, all Armies have this, besides the OKW.

And yes that's why I said that the Command Panther being in a doctrine that buffs Armor so much should be balanced accordingly.

A special OKW Tiger I (with panzer tactician smoke and pintle mount MG42 as standard) would be nice to replace the Sturmtiger in Elite Armor.

Moving the Command Panther to Elite Armor would fit the doctrine, but this would require an extra rebalance of its abilities because it would senergize too well with HEAT shells and Panzer Commander. The Tiger I call-in would be the easier (and more diverse/fun) option.

Then Sturmtiger could be moved to Special Operations, which would fit the doctrine theme very well.

Jagdtiger in Breakthrough is fine IMO. That doctrine would be good enough if Panzerfusiliers would get a CP reduction (to 0CP and make them buildable in T0 so they can serve as a strategic alternative to Volks) and the Assault Artillery was fixed (right now half its shells land outside the targeted sector).

Command Panther could perhaps be moved to Firestorm doctrine and replace the useless Leig incendiary ammo ability. This would give this doctrine a late game buff which it now lacks.

Panzer Tactician should replace Signal Relay anyhow if you ask me, OKW Armor in general could use some smoke, but I don't see a problem with the Tiger being able to upgrade to a Panzer Commander as well.

And yes I already noted down the CP's switch to the Elite Armor problem.

Maybe, but where does the CP go then since I don't believe that the community dev team would go as far as to change up a whole doctrine just for the sake of one unit.

Yeah, Panzerfusiliers I think would be nice to be able to repair only vehicles, act as sort of Panzergrenadiers (which they should be anyhow) and yeah I think I already read somewhere about the issue with Assault Arty, altho I rarely play with Breakthrough so I don't really notice it all that much.

I think Panzerfusiliers as they are right now are fine, but they just don't fit well into the OKW composition. Over time they have slowly been nerfed to a mainline infantry alternative to Volks, but their arrival has been largely kept the same which puts them in an awkward spot now. They arrive too late at 2CP.

Hence my suggestion to put them at 0CP so they can serve as a strategic choice over Volks (just like cons/penals) because they have a few different traits:

• Panzerfusiliers are a more durable but more expensive. Weapons upgrade costs more as well.

• Panzerfusiliers get access to the AT grenade by default (AI grenade is locked behind tech).

Putting them at 0CP would give players the option to supplement their force with early snares when light vehicle rushes (UC, clown car or Dodge truck) are suspected or to replace Volks all together.


But that's a discussion that isn't really related to the heavy call ins shuffle obviously.

JT to Overwatch? What for exactly, besides it's synergy with the sight the doctrine gets?

I don't mind if JT don't come to Overwatch. My main point is that I absolutely don't see any reason why OKW should not have more than 1 Commando Panther call-in the doctrines, when Wehrmacht have several Tiger commanders, Soviets have 2 commanders with JS2 and the Brits (including the revamp mod) 3 croc call-ins.
But I guess we agree here in general, dont't we?

I don't mind if JT don't come to Overwatch. My main point is that I absolutely don't see any reason why OKW should not have more than 1 Commando Panther call-in the doctrines, when Wehrmacht have several Tiger commanders, Soviets have 2 commanders with JS2 and the Brits (including the revamp mod) 3 croc call-ins.
But I guess we agree here in general, dont't we?

I agree with you I'm just wondering what's your reason behind the JT being in Overwatch, that's all.

But yeah definitely, I mean the Brits also have the Crocodile in 3 doctrines now so I also don't see why not.

The Eastern Front Armies also have their heavy tank destroyers in only 2 doctrines each so it kind of makes sense for everything to be at least available in 2 doctrines, if possible.

I agree with you I'm just wondering what's your reason behind the JT being in Overwatch, that's all.

But yeah definitely, I mean the Brits also have the Crocodile in 3 doctrines now so I also don't see why not.

The Eastern Front Armies also have their heavy tank destroyers in only 2 doctrines each so it kind of makes sense for everything to be at least available in 2 doctrines, if possible.

+1