Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy

Remove/reduce/pass around the extra 100mp they start with. The SwS is a good unit/tech requirement you could reduce mp wise so you would effectively keep the same overall teching cost.

About the SP as a unit, they had been hugely buff in the latest patches but outside of them getting a 5th man or weapon upgrade, they are not gonna be an infantry unit which can compete with main line upgraded infantry. On top of having plenty of roles.

I mean, this were the last year December changes:

While these may be "buffs", the only ones you ever notice is the reinforce time. It's rare to build a 2nd sturmpioneer unless its a heavy urban map, or you've lost yours. Vet 4 and 5 combat bonuses received nerfs and those are hardly obtainable anyways. Pop reduction is nice but when literally every other unit in the arsenal received a popcap increase it didn't matter. OKW now suffers heavily from its popcap lategame. The panzerschreck is just awful anyways. Paying 70 munis for potentially a 120 damage source and hampers the units AI which gets outmatched by midgame anyways unless you hit vet 2, which you then get about 2-5 extra minutes of effectivness until weapon upgrades put the unit on the sidelines completely. Not to mention lack of sweepers.

The unit simply is asked to do too much.

As said previously you'd need to rework the faction or the unit entirely because if you start with a volks OKW would get destroyed by UKF. That matchup currently can go either way, but it would swing to UKF entirely from a volks starter. Not to mention you'd then later have to build the SP which would make their vet even more unobtainable.

How about... not changing anything because Sturms are already balanced. I know insane right? OKW late game is honestly trash compared to UKF(as always) and improved USF late game.

Double Sturms are so easily punished by simply letting them come to you, retreat once they come too close and coming back with weapon upgrades/HMGs. 1v1 double sturm build is ggez lose for OKW.

However, USF doesn't have HMGs. Also, no weapon upgrades could arrive so early. Worse more, u have to face Volks waiting for u behind sandbags in some critical position.

OKW late game performance isn't bad, u have cheap infantry, stealth pak gun, most effective rocket artillery, reliable King Tiger, better panzer IV (same amour as the Ost one in vet2), rapid fire Jagdpanzer IV，infrared half truck for recon. U have almost everything u need without a commander.(UKF lack art, USF lack though amour and cheap units to hold the line). Furthermore, u could build 105s or 88s or calling in command panther to strengthen ur troops.

Do you even OKW? Rakettens get killed by everything but the wind in the late game, the King Tiger is shit, the infantry isn't much cheaper than any other faction's, PaK 43s will get artied within a minute in late game and everything has a high pop cap. OKW also severely lacks reliable anti-blobbing tools.

L2P mothalicka

New Meta confirmed for gcs2. 3 sturmpio strategy into panzerfussi

While these may be "buffs", the only ones you ever notice is the reinforce time. It's rare to build a 2nd sturmpioneer unless its a heavy urban map, or you've lost yours. Vet 4 and 5 combat bonuses received nerfs and those are hardly obtainable anyways. Pop reduction is nice but when literally every other unit in the arsenal received a popcap increase it didn't matter. OKW now suffers heavily from its popcap lategame. The panzerschreck is just awful anyways. Paying 70 munis for potentially a 120 damage source and hampers the units AI which gets outmatched by midgame anyways unless you hit vet 2, which you then get about 2-5 extra minutes of effectivness until weapon upgrades put the unit on the sidelines completely. Not to mention lack of sweepers.

The unit simply is asked to do too much.

As said previously you'd need to rework the faction or the unit entirely because if you start with a volks OKW would get destroyed by UKF. That matchup currently can go either way, but it would swing to UKF entirely from a volks starter. Not to mention you'd then later have to build the SP which would make their vet even more unobtainable.

Is it any different from any other engineer unit? I don't mind any other type of buffs/changes which make 2x Sturm more desirable or better through the mid to late game as it remains a 300mp unit.

This is why i said that if the first 3-5 mins are a bit problematic, why not shift that power around. Instead of starting with a 340mp and a 300mp unit, reduce that to 280/300 and make SwS mp cost go from 100 to 80-70

Is it any different from any other engineer unit? I don't mind any other type of buffs/changes which make 2x Sturm more desirable or better through the mid to late game as it remains a 300mp unit.

This is why i said that if the first 3-5 mins are a bit problematic, why not shift that power around. Instead of starting with a 340mp and a 300mp unit, reduce that to 280/300 and make SwS mp cost go from 100 to 80-70

I'd say it matters although probably not enough to actually stop a change if it was wanted. Say OKW starts with volks, and ignoring issues against other factions with that, you're now required to purchase the sturmpioneer. Which means that its vet comes later, which makes that excess manpower that you're required to sink for into combat stats on an engineer is essentially going to more of a waste because SPs will be outclassed that much sooner.

Other engineers can either get a flamer, which allows for faster vet accumulation and damage output even against upgraded squads, but they're also cheaper and require less popcap. Essentially, you don't have to sink the resources for other factions engineers if you don't want too, but for OKW it comes with that build cost which may or may not be used.

There are workarounds for this like changing the SPs vet a bit, or the unit even moreso.

Do you even OKW? Rakettens get killed by everything but the wind in the late game, the King Tiger is shit, the infantry isn't much cheaper than any other faction's, PaK 43s will get artied within a minute in late game and everything has a high pop cap. OKW also severely lacks reliable anti-blobbing tools.

OKW is my most played faction, All above u complaint are the same for allies, right? King Tiger is tough and good against inf. USF and Soviet even do not have a heavy without particular commander(And pershing is shit with only 800hp).
Remember, Pak 43 is cheaper than a Stug III.
OKWs themselves usually spam volks.

I'd say it matters although probably not enough to actually stop a change if it was wanted. Say OKW starts with volks, and ignoring issues against other factions with that, you're now required to purchase the sturmpioneer. Which means that its vet comes later, which makes that excess manpower that you're required to sink for into combat stats on an engineer is essentially going to more of a waste because SPs will be outclassed that much sooner.

Other engineers can either get a flamer, which allows for faster vet accumulation and damage output even against upgraded squads, but they're also cheaper and require less popcap. Essentially, you don't have to sink the resources for other factions engineers if you don't want too, but for OKW it comes with that build cost which may or may not be used.

There are workarounds for this like changing the SPs vet a bit, or the unit even moreso.

I'm not sure why you keep talking about replacing SP with Volks when i never mention it. Which to my surprise, you keep ignoring my point over the last 2 messages.

OKW was given an extra 100mp when they had their rework and they had to pay for their trucks. Performance and cost of SP were slightly buffed across different patches and currently, i don't see the faction having struggle with cheese strats (as most of them had been patched out).

If the changelog is correct this is the opening for all factions:

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

There is not much you can do as USF vs OKW in larger teamgames I'm afraid, since teamgames allow players to get away with things you could punish in 1vs1, in theory at least since OKW has the upper hand vs USF through the game there too.

It's not always like that. When i play with friends, i tell them to leave my alone to handle double OKW, who always tend to rush SPs against me (like 4-5 squads against my rifles/echelons). I just keep my troops together and fend them off and immediately unlock racks and combine LMG and BAR for all-range firepower. They become useless after that and i can push them easily. Meanwhile, my friends have secured their half of the map vs the other player (be it OKW or Ost, doesn't matter a lot) so then they come to my help, otherwise i just push the OKW troops back on my own.

For 300 MP IMO they are too cheap to cost ratio and a better way to have them scale would simply be to give them a mp40 -> STG upgrade. Have the 4 man squad be 2 STGs and 2 MP40s that upgrade for 60 muni into the extra STGs.

This way OKW get to keep their 'cheap' engineers but also have their unit scale to account for the first 3 minutes of the game and not give them such an upper hand vs factions that start with less than useful units *cough* REs


There is no need to change vet on sturms, there is no reason to change their starting MP, the problem is how cost effective sturmpios can be within the first few minutes of the game that can effectively mean you'll lose the first engagement causing the start of the current OKW snow ball in larger game formats other than 1v1. Most of the issue IMO is the cost effectiveness of their STGs as well as their far more lightly cost of 300 and 30~32 reinforcement cost. If their units are so efficient, losing models and units simply wont matter b/c you've already accumulated enough MP to simply build another one.

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

If u wna nerf OKW starting MP, then u better buff the starting fuel cuz im sure they start with the least.

I'm not sure why you keep talking about replacing SP with Volks when i never mention it. Which to my surprise, you keep ignoring my point over the last 2 messages.

OKW was given an extra 100mp when they had their rework and they had to pay for their trucks. Performance and cost of SP were slightly buffed across different patches and currently, i don't see the faction having struggle with cheese strats (as most of them had been patched out).

If the changelog is correct this is the opening for all factions:

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

The volks starter was suggested by someone else but is far more likely to occur than a kubel starter. Which would make it the suitable assumption if they were looking to change it. So what you're suggesting is to nerf SPs to around other engineer levels, putting the excess manpower into the 1st SwS (or all?) to compensate and then nerfing stats accordingly? I mean sure but OKW would then struggle for those first 5 minutes since their manpower is essentially taken away till tech, and the only thing keeping OKW afloat as a faction in 1v1 currently is their early game pressure coupled with light vehicles. Their support teams are too mediocre and lategame armor lacks AI heavily. But yes this could potentially fix things for the OKW opener, given they were given a very sizeable lategame buff. Otherwise the faction would just get rolled at all points of the game.

The volks starter was suggested by someone else but is far more likely to occur than a kubel starter. Which would make it the suitable assumption if they were looking to change it. So what you're suggesting is to nerf SPs to around other engineer levels, putting the excess manpower into the 1st SwS (or all?) to compensate and then nerfing stats accordingly? I mean sure but OKW would then struggle for those first 5 minutes since their manpower is essentially taken away till tech, and the only thing keeping OKW afloat as a faction in 1v1 currently is their early game pressure coupled with light vehicles. Their support teams are too mediocre and lategame armor lacks AI heavily. But yes this could potentially fix things for the OKW opener, given they were given a very sizeable lategame buff. Otherwise the faction would just get rolled at all points of the game.

Nop, what he is suggesting is to cut some OKW starting MP, like -60 starting manpower and suddenly OKW early game isn't anymore brainless spam of unit with no issue to reinforce them. Then making trucks 20 manpower cheaper to compensate during the game.

If u wna nerf OKW starting MP, then u better buff the starting fuel cuz im sure they start with the least.

Because they don't require any min 0 tech investment at all. Fuelwise, all factions are where they need to be.

The volks starter was suggested by someone else but is far more likely to occur than a kubel starter. Which would make it the suitable assumption if they were looking to change it. So what you're suggesting is to nerf SPs to around other engineer levels, putting the excess manpower into the 1st SwS (or all?) to compensate and then nerfing stats accordingly? I mean sure but OKW would then struggle for those first 5 minutes since their manpower is essentially taken away till tech, and the only thing keeping OKW afloat as a faction in 1v1 currently is their early game pressure coupled with light vehicles. Their support teams are too mediocre and lategame armor lacks AI heavily. But yes this could potentially fix things for the OKW opener, given they were given a very sizeable lategame buff. Otherwise the faction would just get rolled at all points of the game.

How come someone be so dense XD

OKW still starts with a SP. Not a Kubel, not a Volks. SP scaling can be changed but that's not the issue here.

If you remove 40-60mp early on (you would net equal tech cost after 2 trucks and been ahead on the 3rd) you'll be losing what, 10s/15s top of delayed production ?
The first SP should be as important as the MG42 is for OH.

Bold: I don't know build times off the top of my head but i'd say the SP probably has a slower build time than the rifleman.

Don't think he's talking about 1v1 though since OP has a grand total of 7 1v1 games in automatch.

I wasnt talking about a standard 1v1 either, i was on about 1v1 vacuum within a 3v3/4v4.

Because they don't require any min 0 tech investment at all. Fuelwise, all factions are where they need to be.



How come someone be so dense XD

OKW still starts with a SP. Not a Kubel, not a Volks. SP scaling can be changed but that's not the issue here.

If you remove 40-60mp early on (you would net equal tech cost after 2 trucks and been ahead on the 3rd) you'll be losing what, 10s/15s top of delayed production ?
The first SP should be as important as the MG42 is for OH.

So with the difference of about 20 manpower on the sturm starter, and say 80 MP for the SwS.... nope i give up. No clue what the plan is.

So with the difference of about 20 manpower on the sturm starter, and say 80 MP for the SwS.... nope i give up. No clue what the plan is.

It's simple, we nerf the OKW.

It's simple, we nerf the OKW.

At least it's simple SeemsGood

So with the difference of about 20 manpower on the sturm starter, and say 80 MP for the SwS.... nope i give up. No clue what the plan is.

You reduce how fast you can field 4 Volks/Kubel straight away. So while you have an edge at the first engagement with SP + Volk/Kubel against any other faction (because UKF strenght isn't the early or anything atm) the follow up 3rd unit is slightly delayed.

This comes from the perspective that before you didn't had to pay for the 100mp SwS so after rework, you were given an extra +100mp to start with. BUT NOBODY builds it prior to fielding any type of unit, which leads to a better field presence on the the first minutes of the game.

If for some miracle reason, tomorrow UKF IS + Bren/MG becomes too strong and manage to cap aggressively, you could do the same with the extra mp they received.
If Penals are "too oppressive" just increase build time.

The only issue i could see later on, are "free" USF squads which is a different can of worms. On both ways, for people who don't actually want them as a forced unit and the "shock" value at that point of getting a Thompson/Bar model. This makes playing with any kind of call in infantry to be in a an awkward position as you end with too many infantry units.

Offtopic: possibilities i could see testing are.
-Reducing mp teching cost but forcing you to build the LT/Cpt/Major afterwards (danger of rushing vehicles).
-Letting you "recoup" units out of the field for a certain mp value with either LT/Cpt.
-Unlocking either LT/Cpt/Major tech doesn't make the unit arrive immediately. You still have to build it (free on the first one), if you want to.