OKW COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

Overwatch doctrine and elite armor are the two commanders that need the revamp for sure.

Overwatch needs to merge some abilities -that as a single are not worth it- and add new ones focused in the infantry play.

Elite armor needs the merge in the same way but focusing in the armor play.

My recommendations are-

Overwatch- (too many munition abilities, nothing to take advantage of long sight ranges)
0 Halftrack Defenses (Forward Receivers + Goliaths)
1 Early Warning
2 Panzerfusiliers (extended sight range and capture bonuses fit well)
2 For the Fatherland
15 Jagdtiger

Breakthrough- (Unit call-ins don't support breakthroughs? also, very little synergy between abilites besides infantry blobs)
0 Breakthrough
1 Sturm Offizier (needs to be tweaked)
6 StuG IIIe (same as Ostheer call-in)
10 Assault Artillery (no longer tied to sectors?)
13 Tiger I (exclusive with Tiger II, comes equipped with smoke launchers and speed boost ability)

There are voice lines existing for OKW Tiger I and StuG III call-ins.

I agree that Elite Armor is weak, but I think its problems are more balance-related than design-related. Make its abilities more powerful/cost effective and call it a day.

Breakthrough:
- adding stug E or Stuh 42 (some tank to "break" through)
- fix the offizer, so losing the one man (the offizier) your squads don't retreat
- some better arty

And as OKW is, according to Lelic, a western front army, then maybe some sort of defensive stuff could be added like CoH1 style bunkers, SPG hummel or grille and such (and IMO flak 88 should replace pak43)

While the OKW commanders are being changed could you please change the icon for 'Airborne Assault' for the 'Luftwaffe Ground Forces Doctrine'?
Maybe switch it to the stuka close air support icon and add the Fallschirmjager icon at the top left (the cloud with the lightening bult).

Something like this:

For Elite Armor just buffing the Crew Repairs to Brit or Soviet level and the Panzer Commander to be like Major Arty with Brit Tank Commander sight might be enough.

Likewise the worst offender in Overwatch is the buggy Sector Assault which needs fixed. I think you could also add Volks Flares (copy paste of Fusi Flares) as part of the Early Warning ability - plus maybe merging Forward Receivers as previously suggested. For a recon-defensive type commander Spotting Scopes, Hull Down, or PAK 43 are candidates to add as possible new abilities that would add utility.

Panther Command ----> Elite Armored
Sturmtiger ----> Special Ops



Elite Armored Doctrine with Panther Command



2 - (PASSIVE) Panzer Tactician
All armored vehicles get an ability which uses equipped smoke dischargers to prevent themselves from being seen.

2- Signal Relay
Boosting signal range briefly reveals enemy vehicles on the minimap.

3 - Breakthrough
Slightly improves the speed of all vehicle units and allows them to neutralize points rapidly and then capture them.

4 - (PASSIVE) Panzer Commander
The Panzer IV, Panther & King Tiger can be upgraded with a Panzer Commander that can survey the battlefield and call in coordinated artillery strikes. This Panzer Commander can order Emergency Repairs, HEAT shells and use the Spotting Scope.

12 - Panther Command Tank
An elite Panther leader can be deployed to the battle, improving the sight and movement of vehicles.





Special Operations Doctrine with ST.


0 - Radio Silent Assault
When activated, all units are hidden on the enemy mini-map and infantry units move more quickly.

1 - (PASSIVE) Ambush Camouflage
Volksgrenadiers, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten and MG34s can be upgraded with better camouflage, concealing them in cover and deep snow.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infiltration Tactics
Infantry who are kept out of combat for long periods of time will gain the ability to surprise assault with a special grenade attack.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infrared StG44
Obersoldaten squads can be upgraded with StG44's equipped with infrared scopes. These weapons are more effective against units in cover.

12 - 'Sturmtiger' Heavy Assault Gun
The Sturmmörserwagen 606/4 mit 38cm RW 61, more commonly known as the 'Sturmtiger', is an assault vehicle capable of firing a 376kg rocket-assisted shell…

This is what I would agree to. But I guess the "Ambush Camouflage" for everyone isn't needed, I would say that for MG34s and Obersoldaten is enough. Well and "Breakthrough" fits the Breakthrough doctrine and doesn't belong anywhere else. I would say that the repair could stay in Elite Armored Doctrine but it would need to be looked at an maybe just copy the Soviet repair.

Overwatch:

Merge: early warning and forward receivers
Add: JLIRS


Scavenge

JLIRS: this unit is just too weak. Give them +2 additional G43 for ammo upgrade. And lower the XP levels for this unit. Its never get higher than vet 2.

Elite Armoured Doctrine

[2CP]
(Passive) Panzer Tactician.

Allow Panzer IV, Panther & King Tiger vehicles get an ability which uses equipped smoke dischargers to prevent themselves from being seen.

[2CP]
Signal Relay. Boosting signal range briefly reveals enemy vehicles on the minimap

Cost 50 munitions to use.

[4CP]
(Passive) Panzer Commander.

Puma, The Panzer IV, Panther & King Tiger can be upgraded with a Panzer Commander that can survey the battlefield and call in coordinated artillery strikes. This Panzer Commander can order Emergency Repairs and HEAT shells.

Cost 75 munitions to upgrade.

[4CP]
(Passive) The NahVtdgW Vehicle Mountings.

Allows OKW vehicles to use mounted NahVtdgW grenade launcher to protect themselves from enemy infantry on short distances

Cost 20 munition to use.

[11CP]
Call-in Sturmtiger.

A short range heavy assault gun equipped with a 380 mm rocket launcher that can tackle defenses,structures,or even armored vehicle.

Cost 560 manpower and 160 fuel.

Elite Armoured Doctrine implies the maximum use of armored vehicles with an expanded range of abilities. Panzer tactician allows OKW to avoid being focused by enemy AT units and the Panzer commander can further increase the potential of destroying the specific targets. The NahVtdgW grenade launchers can protect your armored vehicles from being "rushed" by enemy infantry with AT weapons or you can use it to clear buildings with any units in it.


Scavenge Doctrine

[0CP]
(Passive) Thorough Salvage.

Salvaging will take more time, but also yields more munitions resource.

[2CP]
Call-in Jaeger Light Infantry squad.

Cost 300 manpower.
They appear by infiltrates an empty neutral building through the Jaeger Light Infantry call in ability.

[4CP]
(Passive) Secured Resourcing upgrade.

Increases rate of Fuel or Munitions gains in the sector where the Battlegroup HQ or Mechanized regiment HQ is set up by 50% from any territory where they're located.
Cost 250 manpower and 20 fuel.
Mutualy exclusive with Medic or Repair upgrades.

[7CP]
(Passive) Scorched Earth.

Allows Sturmpioneers to completely disable a strategic point, rendering it unusable. Neither side can capture that point without first sending engineering units in to repair it.
Unable to destroy Munitions or Fuel points.

[9CP]
105mm Howitzer Barrage.
A barrage of 105mm artillery shells will be fired at the target location. The number of shells fired depends on your current stored munitions.

Cost 180 munitions.

Scavenge doctrine has a very important idea: Finding resources for yourself and not giving the opportunity to get resources to the enemy. The ability to increase the inflow of resources at the expense of other capabilities will allow OKW to play "more tactically" and place HQ at the important positions, preventing building all 3 HQ's at one point. Jaeger infantry and Destroying the points ability will divert enemy attacks from general directions to the most critical points. Players will begin to thinking about building cahces or placing a defencive measures to control specific points and preventing them to "blob" strategy. Also, thanks to this changes it will allow Ostheer to use Encirclement Doctrine more often and more succsessfully.

My recommendations are-

Overwatch- (too many munition abilities, nothing to take advantage of long sight ranges)
0 Halftrack Defenses (Forward Receivers + Goliaths)
1 Early Warning
2 Panzerfusiliers (extended sight range and capture bonuses fit well)
2 For the Fatherland
15 Jagdtiger

Breakthrough- (Unit call-ins don't support breakthroughs? also, very little synergy between abilites besides infantry blobs)
0 Breakthrough
1 Sturm Offizier (needs to be tweaked)
6 StuG IIIe (same as Ostheer call-in)
10 Assault Artillery (no longer tied to sectors?)
13 Tiger I (exclusive with Tiger II, comes equipped with smoke launchers and speed boost ability)

+1

I think Panzerfusiliers deserve a lower CP requirement (0 or 1) though because they have been nerfed to a role of alternative mainline infantry that replace Volks in the standard build order. They're definitely not on the same level as elite infantry like Guards or Stormtroopers (2CP).

Them being at 2CP doesn't really make sense anymore, and it's kinda annoying because you want them instead of Volks but you still need to go full Volks build for the early game. It also puts them at a veterancy disadvantage.

This would also make Panzerfusiliers more attractive because of their early snare (no truck requirement), which would make them a viable strategic choice against UC or clown car. Downside compared to volks would be that they can't clear garrisons early because the grenade is unlocked only after an HQ is set up.

I'm going to suggest the same two docs everyone else is: Overwatch and Elite Armour. They're both decent (overwatch being the weaker of the two) and could easily be improved.

Elite Armour
Sander93's post is pretty much spot on for what I would suggest.

Show Spoiler

Key points being:
Panzer commander sight radius buff is pretty much non-existent. I wasn't even aware it did this until a little while ago since it's not very obvious. The off-map arty is also very bad, taking about 12 seconds to hit, and a cost of 120muni for 5 shells. It's just not a good ability against anything other than static defenses.

Sturmtiger Doesn't really fit the doctrine; switch it with Spec Ops Command Panther, a doc where the ST would fit better, anyway.


Overwatch
It's an interesting commander; focusing on early unlocks and, well, overwatch. That said, the last two abilities don't really fit the idea of the doctrine.

The Goliath is pretty good, so I would keep it the way it is. It also fits since it's a defensive ambush unit.

Forward Receivers are interesting, but not that great, simply due to range. They also end up being made somewhat redundant due to the IRHT. Possibly replace it with a clone of Soviets 'Radio Intercept' ability?

Early Warning. Fits the doctrine well. I'd keep it the same.

FTFL. Doesn't fit the doctrine at all; it's a defensive infantry buff, not a recon/intelligence ability. I would replace it with spotting scopes from OST.

Sector Assault. Interesting, but again, doesn't fit too well. It's also a very late-game ability. This suggestion would fit much better.

10 - (PASSIVE) Veteran leFH 18 Artillery
Sturmpioneers can construct 10.5cm field howitzer emplacements which start with veteran crews and have the ability to overwatch and counter-battery.

I also strongly agree with this suggestion:

Change these units between commanders:


Sturmtiger ----> Breakthrough Doctrine
Panther Commander -----> Elite Armored Doctrine
Jagdtiger -----> Special Operations Doctrine


Give Goliath to Special Operations Doctrine

In each case, the vehicle in question fits those commanders much better than their current ones.

Elite Armor
[2CP] Panzerfusiliers
Preferrably changed to a 5-man squad that comes already equipped with 2x G43s.

[2CP] Signal Relay

[4CP] Emergency Repairs
Changed to be either a copy of Soviet Crew Repairs or the British Smoke + Repair.

[7CP] HEAT Shells

[11CP] Call-in Command Panther
Comes equipped with a Panzer Commander (cannot get pintle MG42) and gains the artillery strike ability. Rate of fire nerfed to reflect its role as a support unit and justify the CP reduction.

Minor adjustment suggestion: Command Panther's Panzer Commander ducks back into turret when in combat just like Panzer IV Command Tank.

---

Breakthrough
[0CP] Breakthrough

[1CP Sturm Officer

[6CP]Call-in StuG IIIe
Replaces Panzerfusiliers.

[10CP] Assault Artillery
Changed to be an area target.

[13CP] Sturmtiger
Replaces Jagdtiger. Mutually Exclusive with King Tiger.

---

To account for Command Panther and Sturmtiger shuffle:

Special Operations
[14CP] Jagdtiger
Replaces Command Panther

I dunno if people are even realizing they are asking to put the JT in with spec ops flares, which are the best recon ingame imo. On top of that they want to put the command panther with coordinated fire +25% damage boost to a single target WITH HEAT in the same doctrine. If you can do the math on the cmd panther then you should be able to understand the issue. Cmd panther callin is already meta because of the callin feature. Let’s not make it steamroll every tank in the game again. That also says nothing about the aura applying to other armor pieces with HEAT...

I dunno if people are even realizing they are asking to put the JT in with spec ops flares, which are the best recon ingame imo. On top of that they want to put the command panther with coordinated fire +25% damage boost to a single target WITH HEAT in the same doctrine. If you can do the math on the cmd panther then you should be able to understand the issue. Cmd panther callin is already meta because of the callin feature. Let’s not make it steamroll every tank in the game again. That also says nothing about the aura applying to other armor pieces with HEAT...

I actually did bring up both these points (in other threads though apparently). Command Panther could perhaps lose the coordinated fire ability and gain a better passive combat aura instead. I'd put Sturmtiger in Special Operations because it fits the doctrine theme way better than the JT. Combination of flares and Sturmtiger is good, but not as powerful.

I think JT is fine in Breakthrough. Perhaps it could go to Overwatch, Breakthrough could be given a Tiger I callin. For variety's sake.

I think JT is fine in Breakthrough. Perhaps it could go to Overwatch, Breakthrough could be given a Tiger I callin. For variety's sake.

That'd be odd because it'd be redundant with the KT though. Sort of like pfusies are right now actually, but worse because they basically fill the same exact role.

That'd be odd because it'd be redundant with the KT though. Sort of like pfusies are right now actually, but worse because they basically fill the same exact role.

I don't think their roles would have to be the same. In my suggestion, the Tiger I has smoke and movement abilities. That makes it a more aggressive option than the Tiger II. It would also be beneficial in smaller games, because a Tiger I call-in would let you skip the teching requirements of the Tiger II. The price difference is pretty significant as well.

I don't think their roles would have to be the same. In my suggestion, the Tiger I has smoke and movement abilities. That makes it a more aggressive option than the Tiger II. It would also be beneficial in smaller games, because a Tiger I call-in would let you skip the teching requirements of the Tiger II. The price difference is pretty significant as well.

I guess that's true. It'd still be a bit odd IMO, but I'm not super opposed to it or anything. I just feel like it doesn't add much and I wouldn't really want to pick a doctrine based on its presence there as okw.