King Tiger balance fix: smoke launchers

Isn't the risk right now, too high for too low reward ?

Well IMO you shouldn't be letting your kt that close to infantry in the first place. It has a longish range and isn't significantly slower than infantry or anything.

The whole point of that is to make it weak to flanks due to its high frontal armor and HP, its a 'wall' and should be treated as such, therefore should be weak to med tank flanks.

It's horrendous accel/decel already makes it very weak to medium tank flanks. I've killed KTs from similar ranked opponents with 2 medium tanks. The turret traverse can't even keep up with infantry squads walking laterally.

I think the problem with the KT is that it's pretty much worthless in 1 v 1 but viable in team games when players can adequately support the KT.

If you need 30+ pop of escorts for a 26 pop cap unit, you will barely have enough army left to even contest a 2nd VP. An army of mediums can fluidly apply pressure all over the map, whereas the KT is stuck to pretty much that same point for the next 10 minutes.

If smoke laiunchers would make the difference between your kt surviving or not you're probably doing something wrong anyway. As with every single other vehicle in the game, the kt needs combined arms support if you don't want to lose it to its counters that are supposed to counter it.

Yes, heavy tanks do need support but it's completely unrealistic to state that good play would somehow never put your vehicles in a dangerous situation. As if good players wouldn't ever lose vehicles. Even with a solid combined arms approach and careful play it still happens all the time that your forces run into engagements they can't win, or that you make a mistake or misjudge a situation. Retreating is a core feature of the game and most tanks have a good chance to run away. The KT however, due to its horrendously slow speed and acceleration can not. TDs can just chase it to death with ease. Smoke launchers could significantly help it in disengaging because it breaks LOS.

The game is about risk versus reward, but the risks are too great and the reward is too small when it comes to the general performance of the KT. Smoke launchers or any of the other decent proposals would help put the KT's risk versus reward more in balance.

Not to mention getting a solid combined arms composition is pretty hard when the KT alone takes up over a quarter of the popcap and the only support to hold off Allied TDs the OKW can field are other expensive tanks or Rakettens that are pretty useless late game. The little room left for infantry is usually not enough to kill Rifles or Cons blobs before they can get a snare off.

Yes, heavy tanks do need support but it's completely unrealistic to state that good play would somehow never put your vehicles in a dangerous situation. As if good players wouldn't ever lose vehicles. Even with a solid combined arms approach and careful play it still happens all the time that your forces run into engagements they can't win, or that you make a mistake or misjudge a situation. Retreating is a core feature of the game and most tanks have a good chance to run away. The KT however, due to its horrendously slow speed and acceleration can not. TDs can just chase it to death with ease. Smoke launchers could significantly help it in disengaging because it breaks LOS.

The game is about risk versus reward, but the risks are too great and the reward is too small when it comes to the general performance of the KT. Smoke launchers or any of the other decent proposals would help put the KT's risk versus reward more in balance.

Not to mention getting a solid combined arms composition is pretty hard when the KT alone takes up over a quarter of the popcap and the only support to hold off Allied TDs the OKW can field are other expensive tanks or Rakettens that are pretty useless late game. The little room left for infantry is usually not enough to kill Rifles or Cons blobs before they can get a snare off.

Your chance to run away is the fact that the KT has a ton of HP and good armor. You shouldn't have to run so far that a few TDs will kill your KT before it reaches safety. If your entire army is somewhere else and you have no way to support your KT than you've lost it. Making mistakes costs you units in this game, that's how it works. By that logic I could argue that since sometimes you make mistakes, the cromwell and t34 should have the same smoke launchers because sometimes you screw up and run into AT and they don't have the health pool or armor of the KT, so mistakes cause you to lose them. Same could be argued for literally every unit in the entire game. I know my example is an exaggeration, but arguing that units should be given defensive abilities just because mistakes happen doesn't really make sense.

Every faction has problems with popcap late game, not just OKW with KTs. I run into max pop with every other faction just the same as with OKW.

I definitely agree in 1v1 it's almost never worth getting anymore especially when p4, panther, jagd got pop cap nerf. You simply can't support it well enough. I think its performance vs inf simply needs to be more consistent.

How about this, if it is underperforming for its cost then just reduce its cost until it performs the same, but isn’t UNDER performing FOR COST.

You won’t break the balance, but you will see it more often because it is more accessible.

Reduce fuel and manpower cost a little.
Reduce popcap cost a little
Improper veterancy rate a little

This way you get it more often and it gets better if you can keep it alive to earn its veterancy bonuses, which it now could actually get because of its lower veterancy requirements.

Keep it simple. Reduce cost. Boost veterancy. Have a beer. Cheers!

By that logic I could argue that since sometimes you make mistakes, the cromwell and t34 should have the same smoke launchers because sometimes you screw up and run into AT and they don't have the health pool or armor of the KT, so mistakes cause you to lose them. Same could be argued for literally every unit in the entire game. I know my example is an exaggeration, but arguing that units should be given defensive abilities just because mistakes happen doesn't really make sense

The armor gets penetrated at max range by ATG/TDs by about 50-75% of shots, increasing to well around or over 75% with HVAP or vet pen bonusses. The HP pool is barely adequate.

Most tanks can run away from a bad engagement unlike the KT, and if they are lost they don't cost 720mp and 280fu to replace. You're comparing apples and oranges. It's a fact that the KT does not perform in acquaintance to its cost and its inability to retreat adequately is one of the contributing factors.

How about this, if it is underperforming for its cost then just reduce its cost until it performs the same, but isn’t UNDER performing FOR COST.

You won’t break the balance, but you will see it more often because it is more accessible.

Reduce fuel and manpower cost a little.
Reduce popcap cost a little
Improper veterancy rate a little

This way you get it more often and it gets better if you can keep it alive to earn its veterancy bonuses, which it now could actually get because of its lower veterancy requirements.

Keep it simple. Reduce cost. Boost veterancy. Have a beer. Cheers!

+1

simple solutions usually are the best. Do it and see what happen

The armor gets penetrated at max range by ATG/TDs by about 50-75% of shots, increasing to well around or over 75% with HVAP or vet pen bonusses. The HP pool is barely adequate.

Most tanks can run away from a bad engagement unlike the KT, and if they are lost they don't cost 720mp and 280fu to replace. You're comparing apples and oranges. It's a fact that the KT does not perform in acquaintance to its cost and its inability to retreat adequately is one of the contributing factors.

How is the hp pool “barely adequate”? It has over 1000 health. If you let it eat four to five volleys (assuming you get suprememly unlucky with rng from atgs or TDs then you’ve messed up.

Most tanks also can’t take that much damage.

How is the hp pool “barely adequate”? It has over 1000 health. If you let it eat four to five volleys (assuming you get suprememly unlucky with rng from atgs or TDs then you’ve messed up.

Most tanks also can’t take that much damage.

most tanks are not that slow either. coupled with pathing it might not necessarily be your fault that it sits in danger. ive had units die because an allied squad was moving up and neither one could decide who had the right of way so the tank just wiggled in place while the infantry got upset that the squad formation was disrupted and started running laps around the back of the tank causing it to wiggle causing their pathfinding to restart.... terribly messy business...

churchs have smoke, and so much allie tanks have a smoke ability...so comon..it isnt a big deal to give KT a smoker launcher.

How is the hp pool “barely adequate”? It has over 1000 health. If you let it eat four to five volleys (assuming you get suprememly unlucky with rng from atgs or TDs then you’ve messed up.

Most tanks also can’t take that much damage.

It's incredibly common for it to take multiple volleys. Especially if you want to let it fire a shot in retaliation. The alternative would be for the KT to poke out, get hit, retreat without firing because of its turret traverse, and then you don't risk losing the KT but it's just going to be 26pop of upkeep that does nothing the whole game.

If players were to use the KT as hyper-conservatively as you suggest (never being in situations where it could possibly be endangered) then it would be an expensive and worthless piece of garbage that eats up 26 popcap.

It sounds as if you've never used a King Tiger before. The KT's acceleration value is so bad that if you're slightly slow to retreat or stay to get a shot off, you're guaranteed to eat 2 hits. And that's 2 hits from each source of AT weaponry - it definitely won't kill the KT, but it makes a dive pretty viable.

It's incredibly common for it to take multiple volleys. Especially if you want to let it fire a shot in retaliation. The alternative would be for the KT to poke out, get hit, retreat without firing because of its turret traverse, and then you don't risk losing the KT but it's just going to be 26pop of upkeep that does nothing the whole game.

If players were to use the KT as hyper-conservatively as you suggest (never being in situations where it could possibly be endangered) then it would be an expensive and worthless piece of garbage that eats up 26 popcap.

It sounds as if you've never used a King Tiger before. The KT's acceleration value is so bad that if you're slightly slow to retreat or stay to get a shot off, you're guaranteed to eat 2 hits. And that's 2 hits from each source of AT weaponry - it definitely won't kill the KT, but it makes a dive pretty viable.

If there are multiple shots, there are multiples units shooting at you, so where are your support. KT is there to soak damage for the rest of your army to push around.

If there are multiple shots, there are multiples units shooting at you, so where are your support. KT is there to soak damage for the rest of your army to push around.

comon....the time KT enter the field there a minumum 2 AT gun and some TDs on the field.

KT is so slow and loud you can hear it driving... from your base.
you will know we it is ...and support? what do you mean ? this volks and puppchen? a p4? they have not the range from a AT gun or a TD. and your jgp4 cant anything against AT gun. no...you need arty.


hmm...no let us calc...to come into lategame you need a jp4 and/ or p4 and a stuka, all 3 tech trucks and than the KT....his is a lot of resossurces...

kt is so easy push-away-aible...
and it cant often hunt a driving away church...

If there are multiple shots, there are multiples units shooting at you, so where are your support. KT is there to soak damage for the rest of your army to push around.

What support are you suggesting exactly? You won't have any good AT tanks because all your fuel resources went into the KT. Rakettens are incredibly risky to use because of their low range and crew vulnerability. You won't have access to any good Panzershreck infantry because you need the Sturmpioneers to keep the KT repaired. Not to mention the KT alone takes up over a quarter of the maximum popcap so there won't be much room left for a solid army composition.

I'm not saying the KT needs to be as overpowered as it used to be, but it NEEDS to be a reliable and kind of selfsufficient unit in order to have a common place within OKW army compositions. Right now it isn't.

I'm not saying the KT needs to be as overpowered as it used to be, but it NEEDS to be a reliable and kind of selfsufficient unit in order to have a common place within OKW army compositions. Right now it isn't.

No unit should be selfsufficient. Now if you didn't build and vetted an army to support your KT, I don't know what you are expecting from it.

Most of the Allied AT units that count vs the KT are pure AT, which means your infantry and Raketen and more than capable to hurt them and force them off. And if you face a pak of medium tank that are going to circle and kill your KT the answer is simple, KT wasn't the solution to your problems.


KT armor Works well if you keep it facing your enemy.

No unit should be selfsufficient. Now if you didn't build and vetted an army to support your KT, I don't know what you are expecting from it.

Most of the Allied AT units that count vs the KT are pure AT, which means your infantry and Raketen and more than capable to hurt them and force them off. And if you face a pak of medium tank that are going to circle and kill your KT the answer is simple, KT wasn't the solution to your problems.


KT armor Works well if you keep it facing your enemy.

noone expected that the KT kill the enemy alone. NOONE. But as player u expect that the KT isnt a trash tank which is so slow that it cant reach the enemy front untill it exploded.

often u drive..shot one time and get 3-5 penetratet shot into your KT. or a sprint con dmg your engine and now you can drive with 1km/h into your base.

armor was nerfed, dmg was nerfed, AT guns and TD gets stonger since last patches...so..yes...it isnt worth the cost anymore. you will be better with panther + p4 / jp4

because now u get the range to shot back to the enemy tds

No unit should be selfsufficient. Now if you didn't build and vetted an army to support your KT, I don't know what you are expecting from it.

Do note how I explicitely stated 'kind of' selfsufficient. A 720mp 280fu unit should be able to perform on its own to some extend, instead of needing the support of an entire army to be even somewhat effective. Supporting a unit this expensive should supplement its strength, not be the source of it. As long as it doesn't, it will never be a viable alternative to regular army compositions.

You're basically saying a unit like the Kubelwagen can be very effective in the late game too, you just have to support it by an entire vet5 army, lol.

...it isnt worth the cost anymore. you will be better with panther + p4 / jp4

because now u get the range to shot back to the enemy tds

This is the key ladies and gentlemen. ^^^ Why would I pay 720MP, 280F for a unit that is easily kited by TDs and is barely a threat to infantry and takes over 1/4 of my total popcap. It doesn't matter if the KT can "soak damage" if all it does is require repairs and not inflict its own bleed for its cost. Panzer 4 AI is arguably better in the AI department and the JP4 is far stronger in AT and both those units combined STILL cost less than the KT.

Make all tanks consistant with low OHK radius to chip models off squads when NOT MOVING. 1 model, 2 model, 1 model, wipe. Why on earth we went for 2x scatter on certain tanks like the IS2, Comet, KT, cromwell is beyond me. I've never met a single person who enjoys watching their tank miss, miss, miss, miss, 5 man wipe.

Do note how I explicitely stated 'kind of' selfsufficient. A 720mp 280fu unit should be able to perform on its own to some extend, instead of needing the support of an entire army to be even somewhat effective. Supporting a unit this expensive should supplement its strength, not be the source of it. As long as it doesn't, it will never be a viable alternative to regular army compositions.

You're basically saying a unit like the Kubelwagen can be very effective in the late game too, you just have to support it by an entire vet5 army, lol.

The unit is good vs infantry and tank which is kind of selfsufficient.
I have many time fought it with 2 Jacksons and if it keep it frontal armor in between you really need luck or back luck to lose it. And by the way Jackson are 16pop, 32pop to counter the KT making the 26pop argument invalid.