Fix and Bring back Caen
Posts: 2439 | Subs: 6
It was made with a view to allowing urban combat in a 1v1 setting to work, being surprisingly open despite its surroundings. It therefore plays similar to the tournament standard rural map format, or does so a lot more so than most urban maps.
It also offers no road bonuses or negative cover to offset the confinements of an urban setting. It's the perfect example of what a variety map should be in auto-match, and is what vetoes are made for.
Myself and a few other people I know were a bit surprised it got removed. It didn't perform that badly in veto statistics or in the original polls to remove the map, and only got a higher percentage in the later rounds of voting.
I believe with a few tweaks to make the cutoffs easier to defend, and to possibly remove a few sight blockers and open it up a bit more, it could be ready for re-introduction.
Posts: 762 | Subs: 4
Posts: 952 | Subs: 3
Beautiful map, a few tweaks away from being an interesting urban map that offers some variety.
It was made with a view to allowing urban combat in a 1v1 setting to work, being surprisingly open despite its surroundings. It therefore plays similar to the tournament standard rural map format, or does so a lot more so than most urban maps.
It also offers no road bonuses or negative cover to offset the confinements of an urban setting. It's the perfect example of what a variety map should be in auto-match, and is what vetoes are made for.
Myself and a few other people I know were a bit surprised it got removed. It didn't perform that badly in veto statistics or in the original polls to remove the map, and only got a higher percentage in the later rounds of voting.
I believe with a few tweaks to make the cutoffs easier to defend, and to possibly remove a few sight blockers and open it up a bit more, it could be ready for re-introduction.
I'm glad there's still some interest in the map!
There were a very large amount of changes made before the last iteration of changes to solve Caen's problems, but it was never given the chance to be implemented for testing. With some testing from the community, it should be all good to go.
The latest changes that were made are as follows:
- Removal of 2 small ruins near southern cut-off to allow better sight to the area.
- Improved impass across several "hollow" ruins that allow them to be completely crushed by medium and heavy tanks, opening the map late-game.
- Removal of impassible ruin north of the southern base, allowing another route towards the main cut-off.
- Gap widened between ruins southwest of the eastern VP, allowing all vehicle sizes to traverse the area faster.
- Additional staircase and removal of some ruins northeast of eastern VP, to expose the area. This area was previously littered with cover, whereas its counterpart was not.
- Ruins south of the western cut-off have been opened up considerably to allow larger vehicles access. This area will be crushable to medium tanks, and will open up similarly to the opposing side (which is walled instead).
- Small ruin replaced by green cover northeast of the central VP to allow better firing lines for the northern player approaching the centre of the map.
- Redesign of territory to reduce the "all or nothing" nature of the cut-offs.
In all, Caen is still very much an urban map, but much of the indestructible cover has been reduced where it is not needed. If there is enough interest, I can update the workshop file for people to test, should they wish to give feedback.
Posts: 2143 | Subs: 2
If there is enough interest, I can update the workshop file for people to test, should they wish to give feedback.
Since this cycle is a rework cycle and not a bring back old maps cycle, the sooner the new version is posted the better? I would like to look it over myself, even though I am not a 1v1 player. At least post an overhead on this forum.
As a mapper, you know we mappers see issues with maps all day long that we could fix in under an hour. But the problems are sometimes hidden until the map has seen many hours of play.
The main problem I see with urban maps is:
1. Too many buildings.
2. Weird cover positions. Cover is usually parallel to the the buildings. And if it is not, it blocks pathing.
3. Lack of open areas. Close quarter combat decides a lot of engagements leading to vetos.
I do not recall Caen having too many of these issues. But could maybe use more open areas.
The version that is still in the game has the harsh cutoffs that are opposite the resources they remove, correct?
Posts: 952 | Subs: 3
Since this cycle is a rework cycle and not a bring back old maps cycle, the sooner the new version is posted the better? I would like to look it over myself, even though I am not a 1v1 player. At least post an overhead on this forum.
This shouldn't be a problem. I'll find some time this week to get it updated.
The main problem I see with urban maps is:
1. Too many buildings.
2. Weird cover positions. Cover is usually parallel to the the buildings. And if it is not, it blocks pathing.
3. Lack of open areas. Close quarter combat decides a lot of engagements leading to vetos.
I do not recall Caen having too many of these issues. But could maybe use more open areas.
The version that is still in the game has the harsh cutoffs that are opposite the resources they remove, correct?
Yes, the previous version had some pretty harsh cut-offs outside the base, but they've already been removed. The fuel cut-offs near the corners of the maps remain, however.
And Caen definitely hasn't had problems because of buildings - it only has 4, all of which are below 75% health (and as I'm sure you know, become unusable at 50%).
I have also removed a number of ruins to open up areas and remove some lanes, as well as replacing some ruins with crushable objects, so that vehicles can open the map up later into the game.
It will always have more indestructible ruins than any other map (otherwise it would look like a giant courtyard with a few buildings on it), but I've done what I can to reduce its effects on gameplay.
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
Posts: 84
Posts: 84
this is true but if u back cap u can negate the cutoff by spending 1min max so u can secure your fule the cutoff hurts the lazy people that don't back cap
Since this cycle is a rework cycle and not a bring back old maps cycle, the sooner the new version is posted the better? I would like to look it over myself, even though I am not a 1v1 player. At least post an overhead on this forum.
As a mapper, you know we mappers see issues with maps all day long that we could fix in under an hour. But the problems are sometimes hidden until the map has seen many hours of play.
The main problem I see with urban maps is:
1. Too many buildings.
2. Weird cover positions. Cover is usually parallel to the the buildings. And if it is not, it blocks pathing.
3. Lack of open areas. Close quarter combat decides a lot of engagements leading to vetos.
I do not recall Caen having too many of these issues. But could maybe use more open areas.
The version that is still in the game has the harsh cutoffs that are opposite the resources they remove, correct?
Posts: 2143 | Subs: 2
this is true but if u back cap u can negate the cutoff by spending 1min max so u can secure your fule the cutoff hurts the lazy people that don't back cap
I was just trying to locate which map was the last version players saw in automatch, so we can offer suggestions. I was not arguing the cutoff placements (yet). Seeing the newest version would be much better.
This is what unpacked from my COH2 files recently.
Since we do not know what Relic and Sturmpanther are going to decide, I am just trying to get as much info out there as we can so they can make the best decision. Digging thru maps and trying to decipher what 10 people want to do with a map is A LOT OF WORK.
Since they were kind/brave enough to involve the community, we need to work together in these forums to hash out the really important stuff. Then maybe make polls to what changes are needed?
I keep remaking maps because for some people it is easier to SEE the changes than to IMAGINE the changes. So I encourage all to check out Wuff and Lucianos map changes, as well, if the visual thing works best for you.
Posts: 952 | Subs: 3
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=723237092
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Posts: 3053
Since this cycle is a rework cycle and not a bring back old maps cycle, the sooner the new version is posted the better? I would like to look it over myself, even though I am not a 1v1 player. At least post an overhead on this forum.
As a mapper, you know we mappers see issues with maps all day long that we could fix in under an hour. But the problems are sometimes hidden until the map has seen many hours of play.
The main problem I see with urban maps is:
1. Too many buildings.
2. Weird cover positions. Cover is usually parallel to the the buildings. And if it is not, it blocks pathing.
3. Lack of open areas. Close quarter combat decides a lot of engagements leading to vetos.
I do not recall Caen having too many of these issues. But could maybe use more open areas.
The version that is still in the game has the harsh cutoffs that are opposite the resources they remove, correct?
Yes, you are correct that the cutoffs are opposite the points they cut off. I thought Caen was a good map except for that, but that alone was enough to make me veto it. Kind of a shame, actually.
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Posts: 952 | Subs: 3
I do not support bringing back that..... thing......
I can't expect everyone to want this map back - it's very niche and different from what people are comfortable with.
However, outside of the cutoffs (which have been removed) and the number of indestructible ruins (which has been reduced), is there another reason why you don't like it? At this point, any feedback is worth a lot!
Posts: 2143 | Subs: 2
1. Could move point back or move debris up to leave room for units to gain GREEN cover without mis-click situations.
2. Could use additional sight blockers on the middle south building to mirror the north. Since this is pointing towards the south base, blockers would also reduce its pinning ability.
3. Could remove or change several objects (X's) to aid in pathing.
4. More vehicle pathing by north base. Could remove the X objects. Reduce size of GREEN cover wall. Move vehicle blocking the exit path.
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
I can't expect everyone to want this map back - it's very niche and different from what people are comfortable with.
However, outside of the cutoffs (which have been removed) and the number of indestructible ruins (which has been reduced), is there another reason why you don't like it? At this point, any feedback is worth a lot!
As I recall it had a lot of obstacles which would interfere with scatter in tank engagements. I had one perticular match in which the obstacles getting in the way caused me to go from pushing my opponets base with outnumbering forces to losing the entire game. There were other factors in there like pen/armor and main gun crits, but what allowed those to occur was the fact I couldn't connect a single shell because the shell always missed and collided with debris.
Posts: 1467 | Subs: 4
As I recall it had a lot of obstacles which would interfere with scatter in tank engagements. I had one perticular match in which the obstacles getting in the way caused me to go from pushing my opponets base with outnumbering forces to losing the entire game. There were other factors in there like pen/armor and main gun crits, but what allowed those to occur was the fact I couldn't connect a single shell because the shell always missed and collided with debris.
This is because any object that is actually above the mythical .5 meters WILL eat shots until destroyed. You see it with basically all green cover, from a destroyed car, to a stone wall. The only real way to combat this is to make them visual instead of entity inside the destroyed ruins or by outright removing the objects that give cover unless in key areas for infantry engagements. Use crater splats for everything else to still have some yellow cover.
Posts: 466 | Subs: 1
Posts: 2439 | Subs: 6
Does ANY good 1v1 player want this map to come back and be a potential tournament choice?? This map sucks! For real, if we get a remastered eindhoven it would be a solid tournament map for 1v1 and 2v2!
No not tournament choice.... automatch variety map.
Posts: 466 | Subs: 1
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