Port of Hamburg

Just a few things that could make the map play better/more enjoyable. The main balance issue was fixed in the last patch (north team middle area opened up).

CHANGES 1 - 4 WOULD HELP A LOT.
CHANGES 5-7 ARE NICE TO HAVES

1. Remove some of the cargo containers in mid VP area (RED). North of the VP should just be removed. the two south of the VP could be switched out for a medium crush type wall. This area is full of units late game and the containers create bottlenecks and limit areas to hide from mortar/artillery. Removing one of the northeast containers would help even more (YELLOW).
2. To assist light vehicle pathing the cart (BLUE) could be moved more south east. A section of sandbags left of the cart could also be removed to open the area even further.


3. The eastern VP needs some cover added for the south team. When pushed from the fuel/vp area there is little no cover which makes it hard to fight back in to position. South team usually gets rekt once this happens. Could also remove the corner piece(RED) of wall since it funnels your squads and limits sight.
4. Someone needs to look at the brick debris piles. Should they be removed? In the worldbuilder they have very strange sight issues. They block sight when several meters away but gradually allow sight as you get closer. Player position is GREEN dot. This may help push MGs but also creates ambiguous engagements. Especially for new players.





5. Remove the section of pipe that ties the left and right industrial area together. This would create another flanking option.


6. Remove a section of the southern train (after the burned out section) to open another path.


7. Create more space in areas where OKW/UKF/USF armies need to setup. Late game there is limited space to put OKW trucks/ambulances/HQs etc so artillery becomes very effective. Remove or reposition objects (GREEN ARROWS) in these following pictures to create more space for HQs..

I agree to some of the changes. But to not all. Have to think more about it.
But it is def. on my list/ plan.
--> yellow.

This map is horrible to automatch.

Just a few things that could make the map play better/more enjoyable. The main balance issue was fixed in the last patch (north team middle area opened up).

CHANGES 1 - 4 WOULD HELP A LOT.
CHANGES 5-7 ARE NICE TO HAVES

1. Remove some of the cargo containers in mid VP area (RED). North of the VP should just be removed. the two south of the VP could be switched out for a medium crush type wall. This area is full of units late game and the containers create bottlenecks and limit areas to hide from mortar/artillery. Removing one of the northeast containers would help even more (YELLOW).
2. To assist light vehicle pathing the cart (BLUE) could be moved more south east. A section of sandbags left of the cart could also be removed to open the area even further.


3. The eastern VP needs some cover added for the south team. When pushed from the fuel/vp area there is little no cover which makes it hard to fight back in to position. South team usually gets rekt once this happens. Could also remove the corner piece(RED) of wall since it funnels your squads and limits sight.
4. Someone needs to look at the brick debris piles. Should they be removed? In the worldbuilder they have very strange sight issues. They block sight when several meters away but gradually allow sight as you get closer. Player position is GREEN dot. This may help push MGs but also creates ambiguous engagements. Especially for new players.





5. Remove the section of pipe that ties the left and right industrial area together. This would create another flanking option.


6. Remove a section of the southern train (after the burned out section) to open another path.


7. Create more space in areas where OKW/UKF/USF armies need to setup. Late game there is limited space to put OKW trucks/ambulances/HQs etc so artillery becomes very effective. Remove or reposition objects (GREEN ARROWS) in these following pictures to create more space for HQs..

1. I am fine with removing the 2 Container north side. Maybe add soem bushes into this place( ofc crush able for later then)
South side and the middle container stays.

2. Remove this small car at all. Rest stays.

3. Kill the thing on your red arrow and replace with with green cover. But don't add any other cover to the south side.

4-7 Go for it.

Possible changes to the brick piles that cause sight block issues and the brown debri hills the game adds to the broken brick walls:

OPTION 1:
Make a little hill manually with brick texture and brick debris objects. Could look better with a little extra work.
PROS: Looks ok. CONS: The hill is permanent and may look bad when the wall is gone.


OPTION 2:
Add wire and brick debri objects.


OPTION 3
Do not have ANY broken walls.


OPTION 4:
Large brick debris object.
PROS: Looks good. Is a medium crush object.


OPTION 5:
Use a stone debris object to recreate the broken brick section.


OPTION 6:
Use a brick debris VISUAL entity object to recreate the broken brick section.

CHANGES MADE BASED ON THREAD #4

1,2) Removed cargo containers and the military cart.


3) Removed wall section and replaced with green cover.
This will help a lot. Before you could only push from south in the road where there is no cover.


4) Bricks removed. New look is pending...

5) Removed pipe sections to allow a new flank path in industrial area.


6) Removed a train section for late game pathing and HQ area.


7A) Adjusted/removed objects to clear area for HQs, trucks, ambulance etc.


7B) Removed fuel container and pipes to make room for HQs, trucks, ambulances etc. OKW truck or mortar pit will fit in paved area. this creates four quadrants to hide HQs.


8) NEW OPTIONAL ITEM
There was a large fuel container that caused random/unreliable MG sight similar to the building we changed on Lienne Forrest. If the MG picks the left window it can see. If it picks the right window it cannot see. Replaced with piping and building damage. Building now has full sight. Road still has plenty of room for a KT.


9) NEW OPTIONAL ITEM
The hedge by the broken brick wall needs to be moved back a couple meters so units can actually get to the wall for cover.

Possible changes to the brick piles that cause sight block issues and the brown debri hills the game adds to the broken brick walls:

OPTION 1:
Make a little hill manually with brick texture and brick debris objects. Could look better with a little extra work.
PROS: Looks ok. CONS: The hill is permanent and may look bad when the wall is gone.


OPTION 2:
Add wire and brick debri objects.


OPTION 3
Do not have ANY broken walls.


OPTION 4:
Large brick debris object.
PROS: Looks good. Is a medium crush object.


OPTION 5:
Use a stone debris object to recreate the broken brick section.


OPTION 6:
Use a brick debris VISUAL entity object to recreate the broken brick section.

I am against 1 and 6. Rest is up to you.

CHANGES MADE BASED ON THREAD #4

1,2) Removed cargo containers and the military cart.


3) Removed wall section and replaced with green cover.
This will help a lot. Before you could only push from south in the road where there is no cover.


4) Bricks removed. New look is pending...

5) Removed pipe sections to allow a new flank path in industrial area.


6) Removed a train section for late game pathing and HQ area.


7A) Adjusted/removed objects to clear area for HQs, trucks, ambulance etc.


7B) Removed fuel container and pipes to make room for HQs, trucks, ambulances etc. OKW truck or mortar pit will fit in paved area. this creates four quadrants to hide HQs.


8) NEW OPTIONAL ITEM
There was a large fuel container that caused random/unreliable MG sight similar to the building we changed on Lienne Forrest. If the MG picks the left window it can see. If it picks the right window it cannot see. Replaced with piping and building damage. Building now has full sight. Road still has plenty of room for a KT.


9) NEW OPTIONAL ITEM
The hedge by the broken brick wall needs to be moved back a couple meters so units can actually get to the wall for cover.

Well done.


1. Steamworkshop link?
2. You took care for the 3vs3 version, where fix spawn is, right? Because we need 2 version at all.

Hamburg also has a couple areas that have weird sight issues. These may cause confusion in many players. You may hear things like "WTF isnt my MG shooting!?!"

1) By the middle VP there is a single cargo container(yellow) that blocks sight from the dominant building. If a squad is inside the FOW triangle (blue) they CAN NOT be seen by the building because they fail the FOW test (COH1). If they fire at teh building or another unit gives sight for the building, the enemy passes the FOW test. The building may start shooting at the enemy if it passes the TRUESIGHT test (COH2 cubes). The two containers to the right of the building work better than the single container because they are so far away from the building that the TRUESIGHT test is more predictable.



1) The single cargo container is mirrored on the north dominant building by a fuel tank (yellow). This fuel tank also causes weird vehicle attacks because you can not see the fuel container in game. It is behind the tall building. When you tell your tank to shoot something around that corner it will not have sight and will drive into the enemy instead. Again you will hear "WTF is my tank doing!"
2) The Cargo containers are very wide compared to the Fuel container in the shed. We could add another large fuel barrel object to balance (green). The little rusty cans do not block sight.


OPTIONS
A) Do nothing and hope players do not get discouraged by the weird sight behavior.
B) Remove the Cargo and Fuel tank to mirror balance. Each building will be a little stronger for the enemy, since they have better coverage into your base.
C) Make each building a single story building so the sight blockers work more reliably. The TRUESIGHT test will never pass and the buildings will not shoot. This will make the buildings a lot easier to grenade from the base side, making them weaker for the enemy pushing into your base.

Well done.


1. Steamworkshop link?
2. You took care for the 3vs3 version, where fix spawn is, right? Because we need 2 version at all.

(6p) Rosport of Hamburg (v1)
(8p) Rosport of Hamburg (v1)

Hamburg also has a couple areas that have weird sight issues. These may cause confusion in many players. You may hear things like "WTF isnt my MG shooting!?!"

1) By the middle VP there is a single cargo container(yellow) that blocks sight from the dominant building. If a squad is inside the FOW triangle (blue) they CAN NOT be seen by the building because they fail the FOW test (COH1). If they fire at teh building or another unit gives sight for the building, the enemy passes the FOW test. The building may start shooting at the enemy if it passes the TRUESIGHT test (COH2 cubes). The two containers to the right of the building work better than the single container because they are so far away from the building that the TRUESIGHT test is more predictable.



1) The single cargo container is mirrored on the north dominant building by a fuel tank (yellow). This fuel tank also causes weird vehicle attacks because you can not see the fuel container in game. It is behind the tall building. When you tell your tank to shoot something around that corner it will not have sight and will drive into the enemy instead. Again you will hear "WTF is my tank doing!"
2) The Cargo containers are very wide compared to the Fuel container in the shed. We could add another large fuel barrel object to balance (green). The little rusty cans do not block sight.


OPTIONS
A) Do nothing and hope players do not get discouraged by the weird sight behavior.
B) Remove the Cargo and Fuel tank to mirror balance. Each building will be a little stronger for the enemy, since they have better coverage into your base.
C) Make each building a single story building so the sight blockers work more reliably. The TRUESIGHT test will never pass and the buildings will not shoot. This will make the buildings a lot easier to grenade from the base side, making them weaker for the enemy pushing into your base.

My point about the middle VP house: It is south favoured. So LoS blockers for north side has to be there. Or RIP north side again.
Also i have the feeling if you lose the house as south side, it is not that big deal to get it back.

On right side near the fuel:
When enemy has a mg in it, you have like 3 ways to attack it. Its not OP vs north side i feel.

So right now, since I did not checked it ingame again. I am not really sure, what you want from me. sorry

So right now, since I did not checked it ingame again. I am not really sure, what you want from me. sorry

I am looking at the sight blocking objects with the yellow arrows (thread #11). They cause weird issues and should be removed. CONS: Removing them will make the houses stronger.

WORST CASE ISSUE
A tank(A) tries to attack an AT gun (B). It wants to KITE back and forth along this road. Tank is getting sight from another unit somewhere.


Tank cannot see the AT gun, so it DOES NOT attack. Instead it drives into the enemy position and gets killed. Player smashes keyboard, calls Relic some not nice names, and deletes game.


This is all because YOU CAN NOT SEE THE FUEL CONTAINER from the normal camera position.

I am looking at the sight blocking objects with the yellow arrows (thread #11). They cause weird issues and should be removed. CONS: Removing them will make the houses stronger.

WORST CASE ISSUE
A tank(A) tries to attack an AT gun (B). It wants to KITE back and forth along this road. Tank is getting sight from another unit somewhere.


Tank cannot see the AT gun, so it DOES NOT attack. Instead it drives into the enemy position and gets killed. Player smashes keyboard, calls Relic some not nice names, and deletes game.


This is all because YOU CAN NOT SEE THE FUEL CONTAINER from the normal camera position.

But the zisgun can't see the tank neither or not? So it is just a normal LoS blocker.
Means the tank can go and overdrive the zisgun.

The map is already very campystyle. So i prefer to have some LoS blockers in. So that one has chance to attack, without just running into mgs and paks.

The problems with RIGHT fuel building:
1. It creates confusion and anger for players because you CAN NOT SEE the sight blocker. All the player sees is their units acting very stupid.
2. If the MG picks the left window, it shoots at people. If it picks the right window, it does not shoot at people. You have no control of the window the MG picks. Again, confusion and anger.

It has always been there, so it is not a major issue. Just trying to help new players stay interested in this game. So many times you feel like you are playing AGAINST the game, not against an opponent. Hidden sight blockers is jut bad design.

EDIT: We should move the fuel container to a visible spot. but that will remove some of the available green cover on the wall.

But the zisgun can't see the tank neither or not? So it is just a normal LoS blocker. Means the tank can go and overdrive the zisgun.

I tried to keep the example simple and left out other units, imagine there is more than one ZIS gun. The tank wants to pull up take a shot and then back up. But instead it will drive around the fuel container and get raped hard and fast sans lube.

Yes the ZIS will do the same thing. Player B will try to attack the tank, but instead the ZIS will pack up and walk head first into the enemy. And be killed instantly.

In ALL scenarios some poor computer keyboard gets destroyed and the game gets deleted.

2. If the MG picks the left window, it shoots at people. If it picks the right window, it does not shoot at people. You have no control of the window the MG picks. Again, confusion and anger.

MG has no sight of enemy(B) so does not shoot. Unit (A) can see the enemy (B) and they engage each other. MG never fires. Keyboard dies. Game gets deleted.
The tank has to be moved or use a larger tank so it is obvious to the player.

MG has no sight of enemy(B) so does not shoot. Unit (A) can see the enemy (B) and they engage each other. MG never fires. Keyboard dies. Game gets deleted.
The tank has to be moved or use a larger tank so it is obvious to the player.

I like that your arguments always end with: Keyboard dies

For the good will for the mg in the house yes.
For the good will for the tank/ zisgun i would say no.

In case for the defendant. So go for it.

I like that your arguments always end with: Keyboard dies

My wife does not even blink anymore when a keyboard gets smashed. COH and COH2 have cost me a lot of money over the years

Firstly just wanted to say thanks to Rosbone and Sturmpanther for putting so much effort in to fixing some of these awful maps, there will be alot of 4v4 players that appreciate this.

Secondly i have a request/suggestion. Is there anyway the middle bridge/choke point on the north side of the map can be changed for a stone indestructable bridge. At present there are only 2 safe ways to bring armour on to the map from the north spawns as the wooden bridge is very risky. Its the bridge on the OP just to the right of the yellow X.

Right fuel sight blocker modification made:
- Moved fuel container to camera visible position.
- Change moves the FOW(blue) area to gate area of fence.
- Opened the brick wall so units cannot get stuck in empty area.