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Soviet AT-gun

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Jonne
9 Sep 2013, 09:17 AM
#1
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I dont know how u guys feel but there is for sure needed a buff for the soviet At-gun.
I played all too many games where u can shoot atleast 2-3 shots against german medium-tank ( sorry im bad on names ;) ) and it just bounches back and at the same time u can have a german at gun that destoroyes the engine and completly all health of a t-74 ( i happend twice ).

And well i shouldnt eaven talk about soviet AT against Tiger, its like throwing stones on a tank.
Yeah i know im damn negative but well soviet dosent have any anti-tank infantry to talk about so a good at gun wouldnt be too much to ask for in my opinion.
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H_Stickeye
9 Sep 2013, 09:29 AM
#2
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I don't have any problems with them.

You may have to learn to use them more strategically.



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Jonne
9 Sep 2013, 09:43 AM
#3
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Yeah i try to flank the tanks with them but as a exampel, if u loose the middle point on pripyat winter and loose the possibility to flank the tank, then u are kinda screwed and for sure if u miss the 2-3 fist shots u shoot because usually u dont have time for more then that,
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Kurobane
9 Sep 2013, 14:18 PM
#4
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German and Soviet AT guns could use a slight buff.
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herr anfsim
9 Sep 2013, 15:12 PM
#5
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I think more effective AT-guns would make the game less "tankspammish", while rewarding a more diverse choice of units. Right now,they really dont feel like that much of a threat and needs to much work and support, considering most tanks will easily win by assaulting head on and circle it.
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panzerjager2
9 Sep 2013, 15:24 PM
#6
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soviet zis 3 has the super amazing arty barrage not to mention 6 man squads which makes it actually way superior to the useless PaK40.
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tuvok
9 Sep 2013, 15:35 PM
#7
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2013, 15:24 PMpanzerjager2
soviet zis 3 has the super amazing arty barrage not to mention 6 man squads which makes it actually way superior to the useless PaK40.

yes it's good but very situational, you can't rely too much on it because of its muntion cost.
the Pak is also very annoying cause it causes the infantry to hit the ground and slows them up big time, in any case is a better investment vs t4 (su85) builds cause t3 tanks can circle it quite easily.

keep the ZiS in the back to avoid it being circled or bait with it and then use button/at nades
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CptEend
9 Sep 2013, 16:14 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2013, 15:24 PMpanzerjager2
soviet zis 3 has the super amazing arty barrage not to mention 6 man squads which makes it actually way superior to the useless PaK40.


The thing is, I want an AT gun. Not arti. If I wanted to barrage infantry I'd get a mortar, not that AT gun. If I want to attack tanks, I wouldn't get the Soviet AT gun either. It's rate of fire is way too low, and it doesn't penetrate too often either.

I'd love it if AT-guns were similar to CoH1: Deal a shit ton of damage, but they need support and can't hunt down tanks like vehicles would. Now they're only the latter two.
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Nullist
10 Sep 2013, 07:32 AM
#9
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Imo, both ATGs need an accuracy buff. Their fire window is so narrow, those shots really need to count.

I consider the PaKs 3/4 survival to asymmetrically match against the ZiS slower rate of fire, but I maintain that the Barrage on ZiS is still an issue tha isnt compensated on Ost.

Frankly, Id remove it from ZiS. SU76 carries it for free. Its a double redundancy to have it on ZiS as well, especially considering Ost has no equivalent on anything.

Iirc, ATGs othwrwise have identical dmg, range and penetration.

Id further suggest that both ATGs have a chance at Crew Shock on bounced shots, inline with the recent heavy tank changes.

They get so few shots off, and positioning is so crucial, I think they need/deserve it, especially as MP AT counters.
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peruci
10 Sep 2013, 07:59 AM
#10
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The Soviet Zis is actually quite good. I only use the barrage ability if really needed and if it is worth the munis.

I think the Zis gets alot better when it hits vet 2 - vet 3. If you can keep it alive in the mid game you will deffinetly get it to at least vet 2, just because you can take a lot of damage (relativly). But you have to get it back to base, heal it and then back in the fight.

That is how you get a really powerful unit which can take on anything.

The Pak is different and for me useless in early-mid game, as counter to t-70 or enev t-34. But it does really well vs. the su-85 and other slow tanks.
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SgtBulldog
10 Sep 2013, 12:23 PM
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The term 'good' is quite Loose in this context.

The Zis is only 'good' if you use them correclty AND have enough of them.

I have found, that a simple rule seems to Work: 1 Zis needed per vehicle class. I.e. ACs etc can be defeated by 1 Zis. Medium tanks require 2, heavy tanks 3.

You still need to position them properly in advance. Or else they are worth zero.

What ever this formula is fair from a blance point of view or not, I don't quite know. But as the game is, this is what you need if Zis is your only AT.

PS: you still need to lay mines in the approach.
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
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Nullist
10 Sep 2013, 12:59 PM
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I would not be adverse to a slight increase in ZiS RoF.

I wtill think Barrage is a problem, but I think the importance of MP based effective AT is more important than that, regarding to this.
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Spetznova
10 Sep 2013, 13:48 PM
#13
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AT guns are just one example of what appears to be a general theme for the asymmetric balance between the two factions: the German version does its main role better (i.e. more damage), while the Soviet one has a wonky ability and often extra health. Other examples are P4 vs T34 (ram); grens (+lmg) vs conscripts (+oorah/merge); panzergrens (+shrecks) vs guards (+button); panzergrens (-shrecks) vs penal troops (+satchel); ostwind vs T70 (self-repair/recon); sk222 (+upgun) vs M3 (+garrison); etc etc. The Soviets generally get all the cool abilities at the cost of units that are somewhat inferior otherwise.

In the case of the AT guns, I'm not really a fan of the differences. I honestly would be happier if the two guns had the same squad size and the barrage ability were replaced by AP rounds, but I suppose they want it to be different than vCOH.

Barring that, both AT guns should be reduced in price and population size. They really aren't as cost effective vs tanks as they need to be.
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Nullist
10 Sep 2013, 13:51 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 13:48 PMSpetznova
Barring that, both AT guns should be reduced in price and population size. They really aren't as cost effective vs tanks as they need to be.


This, very much.

MP powered builds need this to exist, and the game needs MP strats to exist.
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KingAnj
10 Sep 2013, 14:24 PM
#15
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 12:59 PMNullist
I would not be adverse to a slight increase in ZiS RoF.

I wtill think Barrage is a problem, but I think the importance of MP based effective AT is more important than that, regarding to this.


Don't increase the Zis RoF when barrage still exisits. If a barrage shot hits a tank, it's hitting a tank "as normal dmg". I feel barrage at 60(?) muni is a fine cost.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 07:32 AMNullist
Frankly, Id remove it from ZiS. SU76 carries it for free. Its a double redundancy to have it on ZiS as well, especially considering Ost has no equivalent on anything.


ZiS is T2, Su76 is T4. Yes, both are similar but, this can be taken as a "core tactic" for the soviets.
Spam cheap, crappy inf (conscripts, penal squads)for sight and have ZiS' & su76's Artillerly from a distance.
The fact that it's redundant is a BENEFIT not a negative. ZiS being versitile at anti-inft (for muni) and anti-tank makes it great. Then add wheels and fuel and you have the su76. Add more and you have su-85.

Ost doesn't have an equivalent because they are more moblie and have more dmg/ are tank-based/vehicle-based playstyle. However, you can make pgrens get Schreks (similar to anti-inf & anti-tank capabilities for muni), and have earlier & cheaper access to better 'overall' vehicles (flame-halftrack & scout car [especially with upgrade])
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Spetznova
10 Sep 2013, 14:39 PM
#16
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 14:24 PMKingAnj

ZiS being versitile at anti-inft (for muni) and anti-tank makes it great.


Versatility in general is great, but for an anti-tank gun I would really, really prefer it to be specialized - because dedicated AT is almost certainly the biggest weak point for the Soviets. If you want something to provide indirect fire, you can get a mortar from the same T2 building (though admittedly the soviet 82 mm mortar is not in a good place right now).
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Nullist
10 Sep 2013, 15:06 PM
#17
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@Kingaj: You may be right, from an asymmetric perspective.

There arenq number of advantages Ost has, that Sov doesnt, that coukd reconcile the difference.

HOWEVER

I think on the specific topic of indirect fire options, Ost is lacking more than is reconcilable according to those compensations you mention. I strongly feel Ost needs atleast one Barrage option too. My personal suggestion would be on Stug.
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Sarantini
10 Sep 2013, 15:08 PM
#18
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 13:51 PMNullist


This, very much.

MP powered builds need this to exist, and the game needs MP strats to exist.


+1
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wooof
10 Sep 2013, 16:25 PM
#19
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 14:24 PMKingAnj


Don't increase the Zis RoF when barrage still exisits. If a barrage shot hits a tank, it's hitting a tank "as normal dmg". I feel barrage at 60(?) muni is a fine cost.



not sure what you mean by normal damage, but the barrage ability fires HE shells. thats why its so effective vs infantry, but it also means it has reduced penetration. instead of 170, it goes down to 60. so im not exactly sure what your point is about hitting tanks with a barrage either. i think the ZiS could still use a RoF increase and it doesnt really matter that it can barrage. it just shouldnt fire as fast as the pak. currently it takes 3.96 seconds for the pak to fire and 5.8 for the ZiS.
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Blovski
10 Sep 2013, 19:09 PM
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My experience of the ZiS is that it's very reasonable AT until you come up against a Vet 2 Panzer IV, at which point it stops really cutting it.
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