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Is COH2 played competitively?

13 Jun 2018, 10:35 AM
#1
avatar of ruleworld

Posts: 26

In the game RNG plays a big part. Which means the game is not fair. So is COH2 played competitively in any eSport?
A_E
13 Jun 2018, 10:44 AM
#2
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2439 | Subs: 6

We're running this right now: https://gcs2.org/

It's us trying our best, and the players training their hardest.

It starts on Saturday.

This game isn't built for e-sports, so it's an interesting challenge and quite fun treating it as one.
13 Jun 2018, 12:00 PM
#3
avatar of Brotgrenadier

Posts: 33

In the game RNG plays a big part. Which means the game is not fair. So is COH2 played competitively in any eSport?

Hearthstone says hello.

Most important criteria for esport's is how fun/exciting it is to watch, people overestimate the importance of, how you define it, "fairness".

13 Jun 2018, 12:04 PM
#4
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

RNG can actually make for better viewing sometimes.
13 Jun 2018, 12:58 PM
#5
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Randomness makes a huge difference in most sports. For example, in sports like ski jumping, sailing or golf, a lot can depend on wind. Even in football you have a coin toss. Not to mention bridge or poker where randomness is the key feature.

You could say the game is unfair because of this only if you could actually hack the pseudorandom number generator that coh2 uses.
13 Jun 2018, 15:08 PM
#6
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Calling it RNG, while technically accurate, is a little misleading. It's probability. And that's present in any sport or game where you don't have perfect information.

Yes, you have no way of knowing if your tank will hit before it fires. You know how to raise the probability (keep it still, go as close as you safely can) but you still need to be able to deal with the eventuality of it missing.

And you don't need dice for probability to be in your game. Say you're up against OKW and the metagame is going Luchs. That's what they're most likely to do, but they could also go early Flak HT or bring out a Puma first. They're not likely to to but it's possible, so you've got to account for those possibilities too. It's the same principle as a tank's dice roll: assess the possibilities, assess the probabilities of those possibilities and plan for every eventuality you can.

RNG is probability. It's risk. And risk is in just about everything.
13 Jun 2018, 15:46 PM
#7
avatar of Brotgrenadier

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2018, 15:08 PMLago

And you don't need dice for probability to be in your game. Say you're up against OKW and the metagame is going Luchs. That's what they're most likely to do, but they could also go early Flak HT or bring out a Puma first. They're not likely to to but it's possible, so you've got to account for those possibilities too.

I agree with your differentiation between RNG and probablity, but you can't compare randomness from games to randomness from players.

Difference is that human psychology is not random and player decisions are 100% made by the player himself and are thus completely controllable. Its a difference wether you get rekt by a lucky mortar shell or your opponent caught you off guard with an unexpected build-order.

I would even go as far as to say that exactly there lies the "meat" in a lot of competitive games, as you are truly playing against the other player, and not playing against the game per se.
13 Jun 2018, 15:53 PM
#8
avatar of Diogenes5

Posts: 269

To be fair, this game lacks a lot of the things a good esports game has which is mainly responsiveness, a high skill ceiling, and balance/variety.

The engine swims like mud, the pathfinding and unit movement is imprecise and horrible, and the developer responsiveness has been terrible. The game only became somewhat balanced maybe a year ago and the game was released in 2012.

But it's still a fun game. Just never had the developer support needed to be an esport.
13 Jun 2018, 16:43 PM
#9
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I agree with your differentiation between RNG and probablity, but you can't compare randomness from games to randomness from players.

Difference is that human psychology is not random and player decisions are 100% made by the player himself and are thus completely controllable. Its a difference wether you get rekt by a lucky mortar shell or your opponent caught you off guard with an unexpected build-order.

I would even go as far as to say that exactly there lies the "meat" in a lot of competitive games, as you are truly playing against the other player, and not playing against the game per se.


Human psychology is not random, no. But technically nor is computer RNG: it's grabbing a value from the system clock. The important part is your opponent's plans and the results of the dice rolls are both hidden from you.

You don't know what your opponent will do: you know what can happen and if you know your opponent you can judge how likely each outcome is. But until you see what they did it's effectively chance. Probability.
13 Jun 2018, 17:31 PM
#10
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

Well for most, only in tournaments with $$$$$!:foreveralone: . Automatch is more of a casual setting.
13 Jun 2018, 19:21 PM
#11
avatar of ruleworld

Posts: 26

Randomness makes a huge difference in most sports. For example, in sports like ski jumping, sailing or golf, a lot can depend on wind. Even in football you have a coin toss. Not to mention bridge or poker where randomness is the key feature.

You could say the game is unfair because of this only if you could actually hack the pseudorandom number generator that coh2 uses.


This does not necessarily have to be true for PC games. In golf/soccer there can be a random factor like you said, even in chess the white piece moves first which is an advantage or inequality at least. However, it is possible to make a PC game 100% accurate and fair, even RTS and Shooter games. I think AoE and RoN don't have randomness in it. I played them a lot and it seemed the damage was very consistent. I have Men of War but I have not played it because I don't like the graphics (units too small).
13 Jun 2018, 19:52 PM
#12
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



This does not necessarily have to be true for PC games. In golf/soccer there can be a random factor like you said, even in chess the white piece moves first which is an advantage or inequality at least. However, it is possible to make a PC game 100% accurate and fair, even RTS and Shooter games. I think AoE and RoN don't have randomness in it. I played them a lot and it seemed the damage was very consistent. I have Men of War but I have not played it because I don't like the graphics (units too small).


Of course you can make a PC game where randomness is not a factor (apart from maybe the lag that is always dependent on the state of the network). The question is whether that really is the goal. Does the lack of randomness make the game any better? Or does it simply make it more boring to watch? The opinions will probably vary. But as I said there are some sport games, for example card based, where randomness is the clue and main factor. And these games are still played competitively, including very high skill and high cash prizes, like poker for example.
13 Jun 2018, 21:31 PM
#13
avatar of ruleworld

Posts: 26


Does the lack of randomness make the game any better? Or does it simply make it more boring to watch? The opinions will probably vary.

For me randomness makes it too annoying. It takes all the fun away. I don't want to win because of good luck and also don't want to lose because of bad luck. Winning because of good luck does not make me feel good. The RTS game I played most is Rise of Nations. It didn't have a random factor in it but it was never boring for me.

Since the opinions vary, there could be a option to turn RNG off. By default it could be turned on but I think most people would turn it off if it was possible. Then of course we would have two separate group of players, but I don't see a problem it it. It should be about making everyone happy. I think the overwhelming majority would turn RNG off if there was a option.



But as I said there are some sport games, for example card based, where randomness is the clue and main factor. And these games are still played competitively, including very high skill and high cash prizes, like poker for example.

I played quite a lot card games as well. When you play cards, you know it sometimes can be a pure game of luck where skill means nothing. Nothing can be done about that. However, for RTS games something can be done.
13 Jun 2018, 22:11 PM
#14
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2143 | Subs: 2

RNG definitely makes the game fun to watch. RNG can make the game fun to play as well.

Relics version of RNG makes you want to punt a baby. Shots not penetrating 3-4 times in a row sucks major ass, no matter how you look at it. Especially when your enemy pens every shot. Feels like getting punched in the goo bag.

Maybe for COH3, Roll the dice 1st shot. If it does not hit, force a hit on the next shot. Or at least increase the chance of a hit for each consecutive shot.

#RelicHatesUs :)
13 Jun 2018, 22:42 PM
#15
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

The lack of absolute control is probably the best part of the CoH franchise. Knowing how to mitigate the RNG or use it to your favor is what gives the game a high skill cap. Games based on ability DPS values are boring because you KNOW without a doubt who is going to win each engagement, which lowers the tension because of its consistency. Watching a retreating squad’s last man get away (or barely not get away!) is what gives spectators a reason to watch.
13 Jun 2018, 22:47 PM
#16
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885


Since the opinions vary, there could be a option to turn RNG off. By default it could be turned on but I think most people would turn it off if it was possible. Then of course we would have two separate group of players, but I don't see a problem it it. It should be about making everyone happy. I think the overwhelming majority would turn RNG off if there was a option.


That is why we have more than 1 rts game on the market ;) This game is about risk management and as such must have rng in. Other games are about quick micro and they can be played exclusively by people who hate randomness.


I played quite a lot card games as well. When you play cards, you know it sometimes can be a pure game of luck where skill means nothing. Nothing can be done about that. However, for RTS games something can be done.


Depends on the game. But in professional poker competitions there is no place for "pure game of luck where skill means nothing". The winner is the best player.
13 Jun 2018, 22:56 PM
#17
avatar of ruleworld

Posts: 26


Depends on the game. But in professional poker competitions there is no place for "pure game of luck where skill means nothing". The winner is the best player.

If I play poker and if I win the first game I will walk away.. hehe!
13 Jun 2018, 23:03 PM
#18
avatar of ruleworld

Posts: 26

The lack of absolute control is probably the best part of the CoH franchise. Knowing how to mitigate the RNG or use it to your favor is what gives the game a high skill cap. Games based on ability DPS values are boring because you KNOW without a doubt who is going to win each engagement, which lowers the tension because of its consistency. Watching a retreating squad’s last man get away (or barely not get away!) is what gives spectators a reason to watch.


What you said sounds like this -

If a top seed tennis player plays against the 100th seed, give one of them randomly a smaller racket each turn. Otherwise you know who is going to win.
14 Jun 2018, 09:26 AM
#19
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

In the game RNG plays a big part. Which means the game is not fair. So is COH2 played competitively in any eSport?


Player's skill includes his ability to forsee outcomes of RNG and probability of these outcomes and use that information to turn engagements into his favor while making decisions. It is risk management.

Sometimes you can hear something like "I've lost to RNG". Most of the time it is "I've lost because I've took too much risk and it didn't payed off".

I wouldn't call that "not fair".

Btw, here's a good video from Generals Gentlement on that topic.

14 Jun 2018, 14:14 PM
#20
avatar of ruleworld

Posts: 26


Player's skill includes his ability to forsee outcomes of RNG and probability of these outcomes and use that information to turn engagements into his favor while making decisions. It is risk management.

What about two players with equal skill then? One goes down because of bad luck? Maybe that is acceptable to you, but I don't think that is right.

Again, I think most people would turn off RNG if it was possible. Maybe some streamers who makes money out of the game wants RNG in it.
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