Integrating penal troops in the early game

I was experimenting with integrating soviet penal troops into early game the other day. I really like their DPS output and vet scaling so this is what i've tried.

1. 2 conscripts, special rifle command, 2 penal troops. I found this to be a suicide build order on smaller maps like Langres and Kholodny. There is a huge gap when you only have two conscripts on the field while building special rifle command. Aggressive Ostheer player can take advantage of it and chase you completely off the map locking you down with a couple of MGs. On bigger maps like Moscow this can work although you really open yourself up to early flamer HT.

2. 3 conscripts, 1 penal squad. This worked out much better for me. I managed to have a decent field presence while one penal squad upgraded with flamers became a great flanking unit to quickly de-crew MGs and AT guns, dislodge units from buildings, etc. There is still a problem of a flamer HT rush which is (at least for me) is problematic to deal with when you only have AT nades. I tried two transitions from this:

2.1. T3. I tried rushing to T70 after getting infantry dominance in the early game. T70 still can come relatively quick to chase off the flamer HT. All in all i found this to be a great combination to counter heavy ostheer T2 play, especially if you get a 120 mil mortar. However, i have lost one game and nearly lost another one with this transition when ostheer player decided to go for T3 instead. I don't know if this was a calculated effort on his part, but a P4 was a killer move.

2.2. T4. This worked out a lot better. Not as good VS heavy ostheer T2, but definitely much safer.

Has anybody else experimented with penal squads? What are your impressions?

Id advise against Flamer on Penals. Save that for your CEs or put the Muni into mines.

The native SVT is good, and, personally, I find the chance of a Flamer explosion to be a bad risk. Flamer short range is also counter-productive to SVTs excellent ranged fire.

I think your 3xCons 1xPenals to be the best option. Gives your force a central, stronger, element. But you really do still need the Cons for early AT.

After the first Penal you can Doctrine for more specialised infantry.

Suggestion:

On a design/balance level, Id argue for replacing the Flamer upgrade with a PTSR upgrade.
-This would open up Sov non-doctrinal infantry options.
-Provide needed early AT vs light vehicles without needing T70s.
-Doesnt overshadow Guards, because Guards still have 1.5 armor and DT upgrade.
-Puts Penals at their appropriate "half-step" position as basically paying MP for non-doctrinal G43 level DPS.
The PTSR upgrade laterally gives Sov some more needed Infantry AT diversity (WITHOUT GUARD), is intuitive with their range, and helps match asymmetrically against PGren Shrek option.

Penals are weak (no armor). For a unit that cost 360mp that's a big problem. I found them mainly useful in going against grenadiers. 1 on 1 they will beat the grenadiers, but at what cost?

building required
slow build time
360mp
no AT
no armor

Aside from that their only useful feature is the satchel charge, but good luck using that without getting your guys killed, lol.

I find penals great as well, and i'm also going fast penal after 2-3 conscripts in 2v2s.

Satchel + button is prettty sick

Id advise against Flamer on Penals. Save that for your CEs or put the Muni into mines.

The native SVT is good, and, personally, I find the chance of a Flamer explosion to be a bad risk. Flamer short range is also counter-productive to SVTs excellent ranged fire.

I think your 3xCons 1xPenals to be the best option. Gives your force a central, stronger, element. But you really do still need the Cons for early AT.

After the first Penal you can Doctrine for more specialised infantry.

Suggestion:

On a design/balance level, Id argue for replacing the Flamer upgrade with a PTSR upgrade.
-This would open up Sov non-doctrinal infantry reliance.
-Doesnt overshadow Guards, because Guards still have 1.5 armor and DT upgrade.
-Puts Penals at their appropriate "half-step" position as basically paying MP for non-doctrinal G43 level DPS.
The PTSR upgrade laterally gives Sov some more needed Infantry AT diversity (WITHOUT GUARD), is intuitive with their range, and helps match asymmetrically against PGren Shrek option.

According to coh2 stats SVT close/far range DPS are 5.725/1.497 compared to gren Kar-98k 3.803/1.027, which means that penals "out-pds" grens at 1.45-1.50 ration both in close and far ranges. However penals don't have a lot of health, so upgrading them with a flamer and charging the enemy position does feel a bit risky. Flanking with them, around a hedge for example feels like it can work out fine.

On the other hand using penals like you suggest without the flamer and sticking them into cover for frontal base-of-fire support does have its merits since they do cost more to reinforce (disregarding the Merge ability for now). I think i will try that out when i will have a chance.

I agree that some soft-AT capability would've been a better upgrade. Alternatively offensive G43-suppression-like ability from CoH would also fit nicely if used for squad's base-of-fire role especially considering that both rifles are similar semi-automatics. In fact i am liking this possibility more than a soft-AT, since soviets do lack BAR-like or G43-like offensive suppression in my opinion.

Penals are weak (no armor). For a unit that cost 360mp that's a big problem. I found them mainly useful in going against grenadiers. 1 on 1 they will beat the grenadiers, but at what cost?

building required
slow build time
360mp
no AT
no armor

Aside from that their only useful feature is the satchel charge, but good luck using that without getting your guys killed, lol.

> building required -- yeah, but you can build M3A1 and snipers from the same building both of which can be useful in a variety of situations at different stages of the game, specially snipers.

Everything else is true though. Still as mentioned earlier i think that since penals lack armour they are better used as base of fire units, in cover, to support an advance.

According to coh2 stats SVT close/far range DPS are 5.725/1.497 compared to gren Kar-98k 3.803/1.027, which means that penals "out-pds" grens at 1.45-1.50 ration both in close and far ranges.

You have forgotten to consider PB has 6 rifles, Gren only has 4.

The TOTAL unit DPS of these is as follows:
(n/m/f)

Vanilla Grens: 15.21/9.66/4.11
Grens with G43: 34.01/16.51/9.01
Grens with LMG: 28.51/23.05/17.60
Penals: 34.35/21.66/8.98

So you see PBs have G43 level DPS.
Twice the DPS of a vanilla Gren.
Penals "should" also be beating LMGs in Near range.

PBs have the same nominal survival value as Cons, and hence, as Grens.
6man 1 armor vs 4man 1.5 armor.

You have forgotten to consider PB has 6 rifles, Gren only has 4.

The TOTAL unit DPS of these is as follows:
(n/m/f)

Vanilla Grens: 15.21/9.66/4.11
Grens with 2x G43: 34.01/16.51/9.01
Penals: 34.35/21.66/8.98

So you see PBs have G43 level DPS.
Twice the DPS of a vanilla Gren.

Right! I am quite new to this game, thought that stats already taken squad size into account

Penals "should" also be beating LMGs in Near range.

I had a vet3 penals without a flamer vs vet3 gren with an lmg in yellow cover standoff at close range. Penals were absolutely shredded.

6man 1 armor vs 4man 1.5 armor.

Can you explain armor more? How does 1.5 armor actually works against received damage compared to 1.0 armor? Is it like a DnD approach when your RNG rolls need to be higher to register a hit or is it a damage reduction?

For completeness sake, here is a larger list of comparisons:

The TOTAL unit DPS of these is as follows:
(n/m/f)

Pios: 11.80 / 6.44 / 1.08
CEs: 10.16 / 6.36 / 2.57
Vanilla Cons: 15.24 / 9.55 / 3.85
Cons with PPSH: 23.85 / 13.98 / 4.11
Vanilla Grens: 15.21/9.66/4.11
Grens with G43: 34.01 / 16.51 / 9.01
Grens with LMG: 28.51 / 23.05 / 17.60
Vanilla Guard: 15.59 / 9.86 / 4.14
Guard with DT: 21.08 / 13.7 / 6.32
Osttruppen: 10.57 / 7.19 / 3.82
Artillery Officer: 15.41 / 9.76 / 4.11
(^Assuming the models are Grens)
Penals: 34.35 / 21.66 / 8.98
Pgrens: 45.39 / 25.98 / 6.58
Shocks: 41.08 / 22.84 / 4.61

MGs (raw value, not including % modifiers to suppressed units)
MG42: 26.48 / 14.93 / 3.38
MG42 Crew: 8.85 / 4.83 / 0.81
Maxim: 21.54 / 13.61 / 5.69
Maxim Crew: 5.54 / 3.47 / 1.4

Figures are rounded to 2 decimal places, sourced from:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0

what is the total dps for conscripts and guards in comparison to penals?

Don't use Penals unless you are toying with your enemy. If they could be build from the HQ immediately, they would be at least be moderately useful.

They beat Grens, yes, just like PGs beat conscripts. However, they will lose badly to Grens with LMGs (for cost).

The problem is that penals don't have Orrah, or AT nades on top of needing the T1 building.

I use penal battalions, but I don't have a 'penal battalion strategy'. I think that they are too expensive to spam given their reinforcement cost and lack of anti-tank options. I have however worked them into my standard T1 build.

Start with 2-3 conscripts -> T1 -> M3/flamethrower engineers -> Sniper -> Penal Battalion

I disagree about the flamethrower. It has its uses. German infantry is armored and flamethrower damage ignores armor. This means close in squads like the panzer grenadiers can be fought by penal battalions. I agree you should not use them as a spearhead attacker, that's what conscripts are for. I like to use them as units to fill out your formation and keep aggressive infantry spammers at arms length. They also are useful as side cappers who can 1v1 nearly any German squad.

They are good at what they do. I tried to replace them with shock troops and it didn't work as well.

Can you explain armor more? How does 1.5 armor actually works against received damage compared to 1.0 armor? Is it like a DnD approach when your RNG rolls need to be higher to register a hit or is it a damage reduction?

First there is a roll to hit. Weapon accuracy / range / cover modifiers.
If there is a hit, armor gives a concrete % roll against a hit. If the roll is below that %, the hit is ignored = no damage.

Im not sure, but I think a 1.0 Armor value means a 10% chance to block the hit.

I dont know whether range reduces weapon damage, but as I understand it, a hit+failed armor roll does full weapon damage at all ranges. Its just less likely to roll a hit vs farther targets, because the accuracy is reduced.

I also dont know whether small arms can scatter on a miss, and perhaps re-roll on another model hit by the scatter.

Different infantry units also have different penalties to accuracy when firing while moving.

Ive heard some speculation that Ostrruppen should be "better in cover", but I think that is just fluff from the tooltip and that there is no actual special benefit.

Another common myth, is that there are crits in small arms combat. There are not. Lucky chained hits and several weapons firing at the same model can result in "crit-like" results, but they are not crits, just a lucky RNG chain.

Also, for completeness sake, cover modifier is reduced to 0 when under 10 units from the target (except in buildings).

Thats how I think it is. Im sure Ace4sure, Crawler or a Dev etc can confirm the formulas.

So the G43 is better up close and the LMG is better at range? That seems counter intuitive

So the G43 is better up close and the LMG is better at range? That seems counter intuitive

I can only speculate that it has to do with the internal setup timer.

So that LMG rewards distance combat, rsther than setting up in someones face, or in response to, for example, an Oorah charge into close range. No Rambo style LMG firing from the hip!

I find these stats overall, to be pretty ok, albeit there are many factors they dont consider.

My one surprise was Guard DT DPS, but I suppose that is to offset the Button.

PTSR AI DPS is negligible, though I suppose that is a factor of slow reload (meaning individual hits still hit hard, DPS meaning "damage per second") and at least it indirectly causes target infantry to "dance".

PPsHs also surprised me a bit, but I guess at only 20 munis, its its moneys worth.

I really think the Penal Flamer should be swapped for a PTSR Muni upgrade.

I also dont know whether small arms can scatter on a miss, and perhaps re-roll on another model hit by the scatter.

Small arms doesn't scatter on a miss. There's no projectiles.

As someone who played T1-4 every single game for all my 1v1's. I would never recommend building a Penal in the early game as they take far too long to Vet up to useable armour levels and so squishy before they hit Vet 2 there just a manpower drain (even if you use scripts to reinforce them). Not to mention if they fall victim to a rifle nade you'll be lucky to have half the squad remaining.

I use penal battalions, but I don't have a 'penal battalion strategy'. I think that they are too expensive to spam given their reinforcement cost and lack of anti-tank options. I have however worked them into my standard T1 build.

Start with 2-3 conscripts -> T1 -> M3/flamethrower engineers -> Sniper -> Penal Battalion

I disagree about the flamethrower. It has its uses. German infantry is armored and flamethrower damage ignores armor. This means close in squads like the panzer grenadiers can be fought by penal battalions. I agree you should not use them as a spearhead attacker, that's what conscripts are for. I like to use them as units to fill out your formation and keep aggressive infantry spammers at arms length. They also are useful as side cappers who can 1v1 nearly any German squad.

They are good at what they do. I tried to replace them with shock troops and it didn't work as well.

Yep, i find them to be great harassment unit in the mid-late game as well, capping on the flanks while main ostheer combat troops are engaged, because they usually won't indeed be chased away by an infantry squad unless you fail to dodge a rifle grenade or there is a huge vet difference.

First there is a roll to hit. Weapon accuracy / range / cover modifiers.
If there is a hit, armor gives a concrete % roll against a hit. If the roll is below that %, the hit is ignored = no damage.

Im not sure, but I think a 1.0 Armor value means a 10% chance to block the hit.

I dont know whether range reduces weapon damage, but as I understand it, a hit+failed armor roll does full weapon damage at all ranges. Its just less likely to roll a hit vs farther targets, because the accuracy is reduced.

I also dont know whether small arms can scatter on a miss, and perhaps re-roll on another model hit by the scatter.

Different infantry units also have different penalties to accuracy when firing while moving.

Ive heard some speculation that Ostrruppen should be "better in cover", but I think that is just fluff from the tooltip and that there is no actual special benefit.

Another common myth, is that there are crits in small arms combat. There are not. Lucky chained hits and several weapons firing at the same model can result in "crit-like" results, but they are not crits, just a lucky RNG chain.

Also, for completeness sake, cover modifier is reduced to 0 when under 10 units from the target (except in buildings).

Thats how I think it is. Im sure Ace4sure, Crawler or a Dev etc can confirm the formulas.

Ok, so you roll for a hit first with your accuracy and distance modifiers against target infantry cover modifier, etc. If you did roll a hit you will then need to "penetrate" the target armor, so to speak. So you roll a second time against soft target armor modifier and score either a penetration and do full weapon damage or a deflection with 0 damage. Correct?

Also, can anyone remember penals vet1 ability?

Hai, Warfish-san.

Penal Vet 1 ability is same as Cons, Tripwire Flare.