The HMG Thread:

So, a HMG thread to specifically investigate problems and pose specific solutions to those!

Current rough asymmetric situation:
-Ost Arc vs Sov Setup
-Ost Suppression vs Sov DPS
-Cost: Roughly equal.
-Survival: Ost 4man vs Sov 6 man
-Slight integral Sov advantage with Merge and capture capacity
-Bulletins: Various, particularly Ost 10% Suppression increase
-Vet ability: Incendiary vs Sprint
-Other concerns: Oorah, RG/Molotov, flame, AC/SC, buildings etc

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Please write your FIRST POST in this thread in the following numbered format:

1). What I perceive as the problems, and why.

2). What I perceive as specific solutions to the problems, and why.

3). Free commentary/responses to others.

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Please follow the format above in your FIRST POST in this thread, even if its a response to someone elses, so that everyone knows what your initial position is. After that, discussion is free.

I know some people will find the format annoyingly constraining, but it helps structured discussion. So dont whine, just do it.

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

1/ problem
they're too powerfull for the start of the game, they force a retreat on all troops it encounters.
and in the beginning of the game with few squads a retreat is alot of time lost.

2/ suggested fix

my suggested fix: make it so that you can take them out or force a retreat if you come in with 2 squads, it still reduces soviet capping power, but less so that forcing a default retreat (mg42 only supresses/pins 1 squad at a time)
if they can make it so you can pin more squads by doing micro that might work aswell, supression/pin time after no longer taking fire should be gone much faster

manually target the second squad to suppress pin, the first squad gets out of pin, and get a chance to either walk away or move closer

3/ general ramble

yes there are counters, one riskier than the other
yes its map dependant and team dependant
buildings and more players makes taking out mg's more difficult

Please edit your post to follow the specific instructions for this thread.

1. I think that the biggest problem is the how little damage small arms deal, so even if you manage to flank a hmg it often does not result in a kill. 10-15 sec small arms fire should result in a dead hmg. The german hmg firing arc is way too big too.

2. Definitely should remove the supression bulletin. Maybe decrease the vision of hmg teams so they cant be used offensevily.

1) I feel there is i huge advantage for the german HMG clearly because of the insane supress.
1 consript team cant eaven be close to it to be surpress imdieatly.
At the same point i have had sovite hmg that been just in front of Panzar grenadier and lost against them because there was no supress at all against the grenadiers, and yeah it was only the grenadiers and the HMG at that point and no cover at all for anyone.

2) solution would be for sure to increase the supress on the soviet HMG and dcrease the dps or otherwise, decrease the surpess on the german and increase the dps.

What about making the MG costing munition to spawn?
Make it cost 15 munition, wham. No more early HMG teams.
Idk, just brainstorming atm.

1) The biggest problem is the feeble damage that the small arms deal overall. It's ridiculous at some points. For example flanking a MG42 without molotov's is almost pointless. Their rifles just deal such little damage. By the time 2 men are down in the MG42 squad, support is on the way (This can be a good 10-15 seconds)

Another quick gripe is that I do not think they should decrease the MG42 suppression by that much. Maybe a tweak is needed yes, but not a big nerf. If the enemy runs into a machine gun they should be punished. It's a machine gun after all.

2) Solution would be to increase small arms damage across the board (Massive undertaking but I think it would be worth it) this would fix flanking and other BS. Also decrease the suppression in a minor way.

i like the simple add 15 or so munitions cost, delays the mg42 just that bit
could compensate with lowering grenadier lmg cost

Good thread.

Problems:

1. MGs and especially MG 42s in buildings is very low-skill play that requires overly specific counters. Partly because small arms fire does nothing, partly because the speed of pinning prevents you getting close, partly because grenades don't cause much damage to units in big buildings. This is particularly the case in Langreskaya.
2. MG suppression seems unaffected by cover (or troops aren't good enough at staying in cover to avoid it). This removes a lot of the interesting VCoH play against MGs.

Solutions:

1. Reduce speed of suppression on the MG 42 mildly, especially with the +10% bulletin. Let small arms hurt units in buildings a bit more.
2. Make troops cling to cover (cf. DOW 2) and improve the cover bonuses against suppression radically.

1) Talking about the MG-42 here. 4 man squad makes them too durable to conscript flanking. Too high suppression (bulletin obviously needs to be looked at). The lack of penalty for fielding these early game without support is what makes them some OP.

2) -Reduce capping rate for all support weapons to 25%.
-Reduce supression slighlty
-Give conscripts HTD as a non-doctorine (allowing all models to get into cover which would avoid the current "one model supresses squad")

1). What I perceive as the problems, and why.

-Soviet HMG squads' lack of suppression make them easy victims of Grenadier rifle grenade attacks. Two squads of grenadiers can attack and severely damage a maxim squad head on with rifle grenades. I believe this to be an issue because it removes the positional advantage a heavy machine gun is supposed to have on massed infantry.

2). What I perceive as specific solutions to the problems, and why.

I think the easiest solution is to increase suppression on the maxim. To compensate, I would be willing to take a longer setup/pack time. The purpose of machine guns is to stop squads, and the maxim has a hard time doing this even head on.

Another possible solution is to rework soviet weapon team AI so that they do not cluster so tightly to the squad member on the machine gun.

3). Free commentary/responses to others.

-I believe the "lower suppression is better due to higher damage" argument is a false one. In most situations it is better to trap a squad in suppression and force them to retreat than to have them able to keep fighting or walk out of the machine gun trap.

-As a side comment, I think flanking of machine guns can be improved, but most are aware of this issue.

I wonder if anybody remembers that thread I made about this a while back. Anyways.


1) Problems; MG42 has an arc that's too large in context with the maps and suppression rate it has.

It does too much damage for the suppression rate it has.

It's too cheap for its level of utility.

Maxims have an arc that's too small for its suppression utlity.

They don't do enough DPS.

They're too durable.


2) The solution to all of these problems;

Step one; Remove the Suppression Bulletin

Step two; Normalize the HMG squad size to 4

Step three; Normalize the HMG arc to around 100 degrees and normalize the set up time.

Step four; Increase the damage output of the Maxim, reduce the MG42

Step five; Give HMG teams an armor modifier that makes them take more small arms damage. Failing that, increase damage across the board for all infantry units.

Why? Well, let's face it. The Maxim sucks balls and the MG42 is overpowered. The Maxim sucks because its ridiculous levels of durability is holding back the ability to buff it to any actual combat effectiveness. Unlike the MG42, you can wander along the edges of a Maxim's arc of fire and still avoid suppression.

As it stands, balancing both of these HMG teams in a way that gives them an insanely unique flavor is just not realistic. The HMG teams were designed in a specific way in vCoH for this exact reason - because anything else is almost always doomed to failure.

Normalize everything about the two units. Health, armor, arc, set up time. Keep the differences as damage vs. suppression. That's unique enough for most people.

1. The main problem seems to be that flanking does not work well enough. Flanking is not even worth the effort without molotovs. It can work though, at least in my admittedly lower skill bracket. I have successfully performed flanks with two or three conscripts coming from different angles; but this is pretty map dependent in my opinion.

2. Besides using mortars or snipers, with the last one not really working for MG42s in buildings, flanking needs to become viable. Perhaps increasing the damage done to MG teams from small arms fire. Another option would be to give penal squads smoke grenades, and give the satchel charge to the shocks. This would make the penal battalions viable against heavy MG play, would work incredibly well when also having a conscript coming from another angle with a molotov.

3. Another aspect that is probably not relevant to most people on this forum is that the Soviet MG requires more micro since it needs the re-positioned more often. This makes using the Soviet MG in tense situation very difficult for me personally, since there are probably a lot of other things happening that also require my attention.

1) First Probelem are Bulletins. The impact of the 10% is too big. That doesn't mean I simply want it removed. It means it should be removed, and the surpression should be rebalanced.

Second Problem: Flanking both HMG teams is not rewarding enough. If an enemy manages to flank and get unsurpressed behind the MG it should be a forced retreat for the MG.

2)The Solution would be to balance the Surpression, so that without Spotter the MG can handle 1 Squad from the front, with a Spotter it can handle 2 Squads at the same time from the front. In addition Surpression should wear off faster IF the unit is out of the MGs arc. For example if the MG turns in the other direction.

In addition Hmg teams should take additional Damage from Smallarms.

3) This is only what is needed gameplay/design wise. Additional balancing especially with all the surrounding diffrences may be needed.

I think it is a Problem that Germans can't effectivle pick up weopens if one model is dead. Also right now the German HMG dies faster than the Soviet one, if it is attacked by Grens/Cons. (And even more faster () if attacked by explosiv weopens/snipers.) On the other Hand Soviets need a special building, Germans always can build MGs.

3. Another aspect that is probably not relevant to most people on this forum is that the Soviet MG requires more micro since it needs the re-positioned more often. This makes using the Soviet MG in tense situation very difficult for me personally, since there are probably a lot of other things happening that also require my attention.

Select your machine gun squad, press a, and the left click a part of the map. Your machine gun squad will attack move to that location automatically redeploying their machine gun to face opponents as they move along. This makes flanking machine guns that much more difficult as the machine gunner only needs to perform one action to counteract it. The flanker needs to continually manage the flanking squad.

Select your machine gun squad, press a, and the left click a part of the map. Your machine gun squad will attack move to that location automatically redeploying their machine gun to face opponents as they move along. This makes flanking machine guns that much more difficult as the machine gunner only needs to perform one action to counteract it. The flanker needs to continually manage the flanking squad.

I will try this, sounds easy. What I did try is to make the MG attack a squad. In this case the MG was continually a step behind; i.e., setting up the arc in such a way that the squad walked out of it when it finished deploying. Thanks for the tip though, will experiment with this later today!

1. Problems:

MG42 dominates the early game and is very difficult to effectively counter as Soviets (1v1 is bad enough, 2v2 is just over the top stupid, regardless of how many people look down on team games). Suppression is near instantaneous and forces retreats over a huge area. When successfully flanked, the small arms fire isn't enough to even scratch it most of the time. I've had plenty of times where the MG42 just packs up and casually walks away while my stupid conscripts plink away at it. Even noob players know how to attack move and have the MG continuously setup in different directions until it finally hits one guy in the squad who decided to autoseek cover. Then goodbye squad as you have to retreat.

Once MG42 gets into a building, there are very few effective (especially time effective) counters. I feel like I'm stuck getting a flaming clown car in 95% of games. It's growing stale.

Maxim is trash, since the lackluster DPS doesn't offset the horrible suppression rate. This guy usually gets overrun and grenaded from the front, which takes me back to the CoH PG spam days. But I'm ok with that, as long as the MG42 is brought down to sane levels.

2. Solutions:

-4 man squads for both MGs
-Tighten the arc on the MG42 to equal the Maxim. Let the difference be "more DPS" vs. "more suppression"
-Remove suppression bulletin
-Remove the autotargeting for both MGs. At least make them require some kind of micro to switch targets.
-Remove suppression effects more quickly when no longer being shot at. My guys shouldn't roll around like retards for 5 minutes after the shooting has stopped.
-Either reduce health for both MGs or make them more vulnerable to small arms fire. Flanking requires more skill than plopping a MG and should be awarded appropriately.

3. Comments:

HMG play wasn't this stupid in vCoH. I have no idea how they managed to screw it up so much here. This has almost single handedly ruined the game for me, and I'd like to see it taken care of so I can actually be excited about playing again.

1. PROBLEMS:

A) MG42 soldiers take too long to flank/force retreat with conscripts

B) Unlike grande in COH Molotov is not consistent in killing them/forcing retreat

C) Firing range/arch is massive

D) suppression is too effective/fast against everything including units in green cover



2. SOLUTIONS:

A) make small arms fire more effective against them, especially in close range

and/or

B) Make Molotov more effective

C) Reduce firing range a little

D) Adjust suppression so at minimum suppression/pinning is not so instant and factor in cover

E) Maybe consider reintroducing the Fire Up! feature from COH1 and provide it to shock troops



3. Germans are supposed to be played defensively until later in game, but with the Grens, PG, Scout car, and especially the MG42 they are dominating the game so early.

TLDR:
MGs' sight range to 30 from 35. Maxim also has 35 sight inside of its cone.
normal weapons' suppression.target_suppressed_multipliers.accuracy_multiplier from 0.25 to ~0.66
MGs' suppression.target_suppressed_multipliers.accuracy_multiplier from 0.5 to ~0.33
Maxim's suppression.amount from 0.02 to ~0.024 (20% increase, guessed, may also be a bit less)
Maxim's suppression.target_suppressed_multipliers.penetration_multiplier to 1.5


1. Problem 1, Flankability:
Once a HMG can see something, it will also suppress it quickly, leaving no time for the other player to react, soft retreat and flank.

2. Solution:
Reduce the sight range of the HMG crew from 35 to 30 (or 28/27ish). This means that if someone is moving squads in carefully, they can soft retreat, initate a flank, call in smoke and/or pull in more squads.

3. Comments:
This change would reward cautious play and situational awareness on both sides. HMGs would be the support weapons behind spotting infantry while being slightly worse when on their own. Infantry approaching the HMG can evade it.
If this change is added, the sight range bonus and Blizzard negation granted by buildings should be decreased, too. At least for HMGs but could also be a part of making buildings weaker in general.
For the Maxim, they could have 30 sight range all around but 35 sight range in their cone.

4: Problem 2, MGs too effective on their own:
MGs are too effective when on their own. They deal a lot of damage and can capture territory so you don't need many supporting units in the beginning of the match.

5: Solution:

Decrease the DPS of the weapons that can cause suppression but increase the damage multiplier of non-suppression weapons (or just certain ones). Currently, most weapons deal decreased damage (about accuracy*0.25 for many) against suppressed squads.
Increase the modifiers (e.g. to accuracy*0.66). To achieve the damage reduction of the MGs, decrease their damage multiplier vs. suppressed targets (e.g. to 0.33 from 0.25) and slightly increase the suppression of the Maxim to compensate (and bring enemies quicker into suppression state).
Also make them capture slower (e.g. 75% or so of normal squads).

6. Comments:
This mimics the behaviour of suppression and synergy between units like Volks and MG42 in CoH1. It worked well there and I do not know why they did away with that.
Because the DPS decrease of the MGs only affects suppressed enemies, their DPS vs. vehicles as well as their DPS vs. enemies in buildings and the DPS of their first burst stay where they are now. This keeps them viable for finishing light vehicles, viable for urba/static warfare and viable for ambushes.
The changes should also affect the M5 Quad and the Ostwind's machine gun (not the flak!, the machine gun is pretty crappy anyways, though... so the Ostwind might be spared).


7. Problem 3, Maxim too weak:
The Maxim HMG is currently often perceived as being bad at its job. It is often seen as neither doing DPS nor crowd control (suppression) well.

8. Solution:
These are in addition to the other changes.
Increase the penetration of the Maxim vs. suppressed targets from 1 to 1.5.


9. Comment: The penetration change means it can reliably penetrate the armor of German infantry in its cone without making it too strong against light vehicles (if normal damage increase or normal penetration increase) or low armor units like Pioneers (if normal damage increase).
This effectively increases the Maxim's damage against most suppressed infantry by 50% (66% before, now 100% is a 50% increase).

TLDR:


2. Solution:
Reduce the sight range of the HMG crew from 35 to 30 (or 28/27ish). This means that if someone is moving squads in carefully, they can soft retreat, initate a flank, call in smoke and/or pull in more squads.

3. Comments:
This change would reward cautious play and situational awareness on both sides. HMGs would be the support weapons behind spotting infantry while being slightly worse when on their own. Infantry approaching the HMG can evade it.
If this change is added, the sight range bonus and Blizzard negation should be decreased, too. At least for HMGs but could also be a part of making buildings weaker in general.
For the Maxim, they could have 30 sight range all around but 35 sight range in their cone.

this is a nice idea

TLDR:

4: Problem 2, MGs too effective on their own:
MGs are too effective when on their own. They deal a lot of damage and can capture territory so you don't need many supporting units in the beginning of the match.

5: Solution:

Decrease the DPS of the weapons that can cause suppression but increase the damage multiplier of non-suppression weapons (or just certain ones). Currently, most weapons deal decreased damage (about accuracy*0.25 for many) against suppressed squads.
Increase the modifiers (e.g. to accuracy*0.66). To achieve the damage reduction of the MGs, decrease their damage multiplier vs. suppressed targets (e.g. to 0.33 from 0.25) and slightly increase the suppression of the Maxim to compensate (and bring enemies quicker into suppression state).
Also make them capture slower (e.g. 75% or so of normal squads).

and this one also