Does 4vs4 deserve more attention from relic? (CoH3?)

That is not full true.
FBP aka now in DBP alot of changes were for teamgames!
Ele, JT changes are nonsense in 1vs1. For example.
Same to walking stuka etc
Yes its true 1vs1 has always the head on top for patches, but as long I live i fought and will fight for teamgame balance too

And yes Relic knows that 4vs4 has the most playerbase i guess atm.
In past it was 2vs2.
So 4vs4 >2vs2 > 1vs1, > 3vs3 i guess atm.

You were the one who pushed for 4vs4 changes in the DBP, but if it wasn't for you, half of those changes could have easily be dropped and nobody (other modders, 1vs1/2vs2 community) would have fought for it.

And Spring Patch was just competitive tweaks (1vs1, 2vs2) following the DBP. Nobody tests how those changes affect the 4vs4. Commanders are balanced for 1vs1 regardless of how they perform in 4vs4.

And it isn't just the balance patches which have to ensure the good 4vs4 experience. If players have a shit experience in the first 4vs4 games (which is plagued by disconnects, bad matchmaking, must-have commanders being locked, input lag), they aren't going to play more, and they will never even get to the point where they might consider 1vs1 ranked.

Thank you for your clear and unbiased opinion of a game mode you probably never play

1v1 is the most boring game mode of all time. You know within the first two engagements who will win the game. You never know who will a 4v4 until it is over.

EXAMPLES OF 1v1 SKILL:
- Oh, I went left and should have went right..GG
- Oh, I got in this building and didn't know penals were on the other side, satchel...GG
- Oh, I did not guess what commander my opponent would have, I now have zero chance of winning.
- RNG decided none of my mortars, arty, or tank shots will hit..GG

Yeah, lets focus all of our attention on 1v1, and totally forget the only FUN game mode in our game. Which you know...people pay for so they can have fun. This guys great

Oh really? I guess I've a good chance of beating DevM and Luvnest then. Since it's just a 50-50 left/right guess. GCS here I come!

"Thank you for your clear and unbiased opinion of a game mode you probably never play"

Such beautiful irony.

Just because i'm curious:
What is the best 4on4 map that is part of the current rotation?
Because back in the days when i have played with friends we had played for the most parts Lienne Forest and La Gleize (any sometimes Red Ball) only because we dont got any other map by matchmaker.

Oh really? I guess I've a good chance of beating DevM and Luvnest then. Since it's just a 50-50 left/right guess. GCS here I come!

Yes! Exactly! You do! I have beaten players much better than me in 1v1 because of these things. 1v1 is very unforgiving. I do not see how anyone could say otherwise. You lose 1 or 2 squads to these RANDOM factors and you lose. Its over. You just wasted 15 minutes of your life. You can lose your whole army twice before its over in a 4v4. Does 1v1 require more skill to play, yes a lot more skill. It is also not fun at all because it is over in under 4 minute most times.

Losing you whole army is also what makes it fun! You do not have to stick to any meta other than artillery counters. If you lose a bunch of stuff just merge with your partner and support them. Still a viable win. People win games by spamming engrs and covering points with fuel caches. Do that in a 1v1.

So yes, Relic should put some thought into 4v4(always) for COH3. And put thought into 1v1 since it is the ESL style everyone loves to watch. Tournaments are getting over 1000 viewers, yet there are probably half that playing 1v1....because it sucks to play (pokes the bear)

Primarily due to Relic only having limited resources: I believe 4v4 should be a fun extra in the game mdoe and nothing else, and left to the players to set up custom map lobbies with mods and their own rules for team games. It should be a fun zone where people have fun, and don't take it too seriously.

1v1 and 2v2 should have been the full focus of the game, Relic's resources were over taxed as it is, and we end up with the worst scenario of just average game modes instead of two really amazingly polished game modes.

I hope they do this for CoH3 and we just have two excellent game modes, and a really well developed custom lobby system.

Just because i'm curious:
What is the best 4on4 map that is part of the current rotation?
Because back in the days when i have played with friends we had played for the most parts Lienne Forest and La Gleize (any sometimes Red Ball) only because we dont got any other map by matchmaker.

I think: Lagleize, Lieneforest, Steppe and Generalmud.

From lower people, who love to camp: Port of Hamburg and Hill400

Steelwork Essen is now a good map too. Still little bit favoured for south side, but fine atm.

Redball is hard to say: Ok map, but way to fast in camp and arty sadly. Tho better than Port of Hamburg or Hill 400.

Lanzeratm ambush: I think people have to give this map more chance to try it out again. Many things changed.

Vielsam and attack on lorch are very tricky and own style. Some people like it, some other hate it.

Primarily due to Relic only having limited resources: I believe 4v4 should be a fun extra in the game and nothing else, and left to the players to set up custom map lobbies with mods and their own rules for team games. It should be a fun zone where people have fun, and don't take it too seriously.

1v1 and 2v2 should have been the full focus of the game, Relic's resources were over taxed as it is, and we end up with the worst scenario of just average game modes instead of two really amazingly polished game modes.

I hope they do this for CoH3 and we just have two excellent game modes, and a really well developed custom lobby system.

I agree kind of, tho its amazing, when both team have the same skill. Then you have epic battle and long tankfights.
But yeah most of the time the games are more in favour from 1 team.

There is nothing better than to see a vet 5 walking stuka and vet 3 Elefant for example

Primarily due to Relic only having limited resources: I believe 4v4 should be a fun extra in the game and nothing else, and left to the players to set up custom map lobbies with mods and their own rules for team games. It should be a fun zone where people have fun, and don't take it too seriously.

1v1 and 2v2 should have been the full focus of the game, Relic's resources were over taxed as it is, and we end up with the worst scenario of just average game modes instead of two really amazingly polished game modes.

I don't entirely agree here. 1v1 and 2v2 are indeed the more serious game modes, but I doubt the average playerbase is really that competitive. I think a large majority of players is social minded and wants to have a good time with friends rather than playing small competitive matches. I personally enjoy the tactical and strategical aspect of 2v2s, but playing with my friends in a 3v3/4v4 is way more fun and relaxing. And imo these modes still require proper balance to be playable.

I do think there should be seperate balance for different modes, like unit limitations or tweaked unit stats (for example Su-76 that is fine in 1v1/2v2 but is too cost-effective when spammed in team games). That does however put a strain on company resources like you mentioned.

From lower people, who love to camp: Port of Hamburg and Hill400

I think Hill 400 is actually a nice map, for some reason we usually have epic matches on that map. It's big enough to flank while still concentrated around the middle (fuel cutoffs). I don't think it's that campy at all.

I think Hill 400 is actually a nice map, for some reason we usually have epic matches on that map. It's big enough to flank while still concentrated around the middle (fuel cutoffs). I don't think it's that campy at all.

You can't really flank on this map^^ That is the point. And yes the games took longer, because you get less fuel income on this map in most of the cases.
Also you can't hold 3 vps on this map.

But yes i hope that IF coh3 comes Relic will not forget 4vs4.

You can't really flank on this map^^ That is the point

I disagree, the south side is really open for both teams to attack either the fuel cutoff/VP or the middle VP by four different routes (through the middle, just below the middle, by the lower main road or along the map border). The north is a bit less open, mainly due to the church covering a lot of ground. Sure it's not like General Mud, but I certainly wouldn't ever put this map in the same catagory as the corridor maps like Hamburg and Red Ball.

Just because i'm curious:
What is the best 4on4 map that is part of the current rotation?
Because back in the days when i have played with friends we had played for the most parts Lienne Forest and La Gleize (any sometimes Red Ball) only because we dont got any other map by matchmaker.

Essen Steelwork, Steppes and La Gleize are my favourite 4v4 maps atm although Le Gleize is a little unforgiving if you get push back.

City 17 would be in my list of favourites if it was still in rotation.

The bottom end for me would be Lorch Assault and Lanzerath.

Forget everything I said. Just play 1v1 or even better don't play at all. Ancestors Legacy looks kinda cool....Hmmmm

Talk what you want.

But teamgames are mostly used to conceal that you suck

Also you can blame teammates if you lose.

That's the reason why 4v4 and this DoTA and LoL shit is so popular

LoL and DoTA are infinitely more successful than CoH2 so perhaps there is something to learn.


1v1 is a total snorefest that is decided by arbitrary factors like rng as much as skill. You mess up once and you might have lost the whole game. 1v1 is great for casters, streamers and the highly competitive. However, they simply do not represent the majority playerbase and therefore the majority of the potential income.

Talk what you want.

But teamgames are mostly used to conceal that you suck

Also you can blame teammates if you lose.

That's the reason why 4v4 and this DoTA and LoL shit is so popular

For some reason I can't stand playing anything but 1v1 in DoW2, but in CoH2 I have almost no interest in 1v1 and play mostly 4v4.

Team game modes in DoW2 feels like a mess instead of clean and nice tactical approach of 1v1.
In CoH2 1v1 on the other hand feels... I don't know... a little empty? Like it isn't a war.

Speaking as a 1v1 and 4v4 player, I agree completely that Relic dropped the ball hard by not making a special game mode for 4v4 that has completely separate rules.

Balancing around 1v1 and then dropping the same units, commanders and abilities into much larger maps with 4x the player count? It's a wonder 4v4s work as well as they do, honestly.

I shit on MOBAs as much as the next guy (and we saw how well Relic tackles the concept in the disaster that was DoW3), but I really think if Relic released a dedicated 4v4 mode with focus on cooperation and with commanders being radically different, separate from 1v1s, then they would attract an ENORMOUS chunk of multiplayer-rts hungry crowd. I am talking 10x or 20x the current playerbase. But of course it's easy for me to speculate since it's not my money on the line.

When I say completely different I mean remove core factions, remove teching, EVERYTHING is in the commander trees, you get 4 units and 3 abilities and that's it. If you think that would be boring just pick a different commander next game and you have a 100% different experience.

The commanders would have to be TAILOR MADE to 4v4s to be useless alone but have to synergize. Commanders with tanks never get engineers and vice versa, commanders with elite infantry never get elite tanks or MGs. Not every commander has mortars, nor MGs, so you encounter less of those. Best of all you would not be encountering the exact same units and strats every single game, since people would have to mix their abilities and units in combined arms.

Add in smaller, custom made maps, and tweak teching so that the action starts IMMEDIATELY and matches last 20 minutes per game.