Fireteam concept.

Hello, so after playing some Brothers in Arms I found the 2-4 man fireteam concept fairly interesting and it made me wonder if it would work in CoH/CoH2 as well, keep in mind however that this is not meant to be implemented within the current game, it's just a more tactically realistic approach and if ever attempted would just be a small mod of sorts.

Now for those of you who don't know about/haven't played Brothers in Arms, it's a First Person/Third Person tactical and fairly realistic shooter, it's not Arma/Squad level tactical realism but it makes the cut to me. Think of Red Orchestra 2's level of tactical realism and it would probably hit the mark.

Anyhow, a fireteam is basically a 2-4 man team that is within a squad, so for instance if a squad is made up of 8 people, that would be 2 fireteams.

As for how I'd implement this fireteam concept is simple and I'll be using the German squad as an example so people can understand me a little better.

Now a German squad in the early parts of the war was 10 men, later this dropped to 9 and even 8 in the case of the Volksgrenadiers who as we all know were "better" equipped to compensate for their lack of manpower.

In game this would translate to said squad being 3 fireteams essentially, a Riflemen fireteam of 4 guys all armed with K98k rifles, an assault team made up of 4 people all armed with MP40s for example and maybe StG 44s for the Volksgrenadiers, and finally a 2 man MG34/42 team.

How this would work is by you calling in a squad would get 3 "sub-squads" or like I said, fireteams. These fireteams would be attached to each other like how the British officers could attach themselves to other squads in CoH with a special follow ability or how you could attach singular units to squads in Dawn of War. These sub squads would be able to un-attach or un-follow each other and go their separate ways so the player can tactically move them and engage the enemy.

To get a better idea of what you'd be getting from a squad is this:

Like I said the 4 riflemen fireteam would be just that, guys armed with rifles and maybe grenades or rifle grenades, and perhaps be able to build sandbags/barbedwire, basically your generic guys. I also wanted to mention here that they would also be able to suppress but it would take them a hell of a lot of time, but in a fight where you have 2 rifle teams vs 2 enemy rifle teams if you focus fire on one of them you'd be able to suppress them much faster.

The assault fireteam would be able to only throw grenades as a special ability of sorts and smoke at the most, similar to Red Orchestra 2's gameplay and they'd be primarily meant to be used as what the tin says, close quarters assault guys, meaning that they won't be able to suppress however they will have the highest damage output when in close quarters.

And now we come to the bread and butter of German infantry tactics, the MG fireteam. This fireteam will have the job of carrying most of the squad's fire as well as suppression power with them, and in order for them to do that the LMG variants of the MG42 and MG34 will need to be changed up a bit to be able to quickly suppress enemy infantry but have the same damage as the rifle team and less accuracy, but you won't be able to pin squads like the heavy MGs.

So in short, if you wanna kill something you will need to first suppress them with massive amounts of rifle fire or an MG team and then move in your Assault team to finish the job.

This would create a sort of rock-paper-scissors balance where the MG team is a vital suppression platform, while the Rifle team would be a bit more versatile and generic, being in between the MG and Assault teams in terms of damage output and suppression, and finally the Assault team would be the most devastating in terms of damage when in close range.

Now people will ask what's the point in the rifle team when an MG and an Assault team combo would be able to tear through most squads? Well for instance the rifle team would be able to provide and build cover as well as additional suppression for both the MG and Assault fireteams.

Then again there's the question of what happens to the tri-pod heavy MGs. It's simple, they will be as they are now but a bit slower and if caught off guard in a not setup state they will be quickly dealt with, encouraging people to actually use them as defensive tools on choke points or ambushes instead of just A moving them like with the Maxim currently. So if you want suppression on the offense you will have to rely on the MG fireteam, if you want to suppress, pin and then kill you will need a heavy MG team.

I also had another idea of support teams being able to dig themselves in instead of having MGs magically pop up in emplacements if you pay 50 ammo, so that would mean the end of the Bunker spam that some people complain about as well but I guess I'll leave that for another topic.

And the last question I would like to cover is what happens to other Armies' squads and specialist such. I thought little about that but I guess that other Armies' squads will get the same treatment as well as specialist squads with little differences here and there to make them unique, like for example the American riflemen squad historically was 12 men, that would mean that their fireteams would be a man or 2 more than the German ones, I won't list all of the possible combination but their MG team could like have 3 men instead of 2 and so forth and their rifle team would have a single BAR as well, while a specialist Ranger squad wouldn't have an MG team but instead a medic such and so on.

Several problems with this concept are first, the follow or attach command/ability which is missing in this game for some reason. Second is the questionable survivability of these smaller fireteams, now a few people have claimed that improving the squad's spread would help, others have said that giving models more HP or making high explosives less damaging as to lower their wipe potential will also help so these are a few things to consider if this concept is ever attempted. This would also give more reason as to have the rifle team stick to the MG team more as to be their flank protection as well as meat shields if needed, and the squad spread would help out if the MG team was to be targeted by let's say a mortar or a bazooka team or even a tank, so if you lose 1 guy another could retreat and you'd still have your MG fire team.

Now again, this is not to be taken as it would be implemented in the current game's state, I'm talking about an entirely different approach to the game's infantry play which would need to be put in a mod or something of that sort, so please if you're here to troll like some specific people you're welcome to leave as this does not concern you, I just made this topic to see what people think of the concept for a mod and I am also aware that it would probably be better for it to be implemented as a mod for CoH instead of this game.

Thank you for reading my several paragraph block of text and cheers.

That system sounds like a mix of MoW and CoH2.

It sounds interesting considering its takes a medium between the two, Taking the flexibility the MoW system while also preventing the micro hell hole by not making them individuals. Its an interesting idea for sure but one that would likely require a new engine/game mechanics meaning it would be hard to make a mod for it.

That system sounds like a mix of MoW and CoH2.

It sounds interesting considering its takes a medium between the two, Taking the flexibility the MoW system while also preventing the micro hell hole by not making them individuals. Its an interesting idea for sure but one that would likely require a new engine/game mechanics meaning it would be hard to make a mod for it.

Seeing as how CoH is more suited for this slower and more tactical approach I might just modify either vanilla or Europe at War with this concept and see how it goes.

The only problems I might face is that I need to modify the manpower income and figure out a way as to have the whole squad of 3 fireteams follow each other right from the get go instead of the player manually having to do it.

I am also not sure if I can summon a whole "combat" group like this from the building itself.

It would require extensive testing and coding but it could be a very interesting idea, also may freshen up infantry combat a bit into more specialized groups.

- I like it a LOT! No more MG42 spam. No more Grenadier Spam.
And it encourages you to use them together, as they are meant to be.
- Officer-attach was in COH1. It isn't in COH2?
- You could call in a USF BattleGroup in COH1 (I forget the name)
Something like 2x M10s and a bunch of infantry? Same principle.
- Could do something similar for tanks?
To avoid TD tank spam, or Panther spam, or StuIIIG spam, or...
Maxim Spam!

I like NSD44's slot concept, too.

- I like it a LOT! No more MG42 spam. No more Grenadier Spam.
And it encourages you to use them together, as they are meant to be.
- Officer-attach was in COH1. It isn't in COH2?
- You could call in a USF BattleGroup in COH1 (I forget the name)
Something like 2x M10s and a bunch of infantry? Same principle.
- Could do something similar for tanks?
To avoid TD tank spam, or Panther spam, or StuIIIG spam, or...
Maxim Spam!

I like NSD44's slot concept, too.

Yes, officer-attach is missing in CoH2 for some reason, and I can't find any such ability.

The Blitzkrieg doctrine had battlegroups before as well, with each of it's call ins having a tank as well as Stormtroopers before, also the PE had a Panther battlegroup call in.

Yeah something similar for tanks would also be a good idea.

It would both delay tanks since they'd come in battlegroups and cost a lot (we might be looking at around 1500-2000 manpower and a hell of a lot of fuel as a price) and it would also expand the game's scale.

And the good thing about making these self contained combat groups is that as they'll rely on each other you won't be confined to just using singular squads, you could mix em up with multiple rifle squads, or MG teams covering a choke point as well as Assault teams fighting for like a point or in an urban environment.

Yes, officer-attach is missing in CoH2 for some reason, and I can't find any such ability.

The Blitzkrieg doctrine had battlegroups before as well, with each of it's call ins having a tank as well as Stormtroopers before, also the PE had a Panther battlegroup call in.

Yeah something similar for tanks would also be a good idea.

It would both delay tanks since they'd come in battlegroups and cost a lot (we might be looking at around 1500-2000 manpower and a hell of a lot of fuel as a price) and it would also expand the game's scale.

And the good thing about making these self contained combat groups is that as they'll rely on each other you won't be confined to just using singular squads, you could mix em up with multiple rifle squads, or MG teams covering a choke point as well as Assault teams fighting for like a point or in an urban environment.

- Stupid. Successive game versions should ADD to the game. Not remove from it
- I remember, yea. Good days
- It would be great to delay the tank stage and give infantry/light tanks more time to play
- More realism AND more balance AND fixes a host of problems AND teaches people proper use of units.

What's not to like?

* How about paying extra for non-historical composition? Say, +20% cost each time
you buy same non-base unit (Firefly Sherman, for example, but not Cromwells, or T34/76).
(Maxim, or M42 for example, but not 2x Riflemen).

Now, you KNOW someone will say that's not how the economy works.
The more of a specific type of unit you order, the cheaper it should become.

Let's just tie this guy up and leave him gagged in a corner, shall we?

Reminds me of a few other games I've played. They called it "The order of battle".
Premium upcost would be required for each deviation from the order of battle.

- Stupid. Successive game versions should ADD to the game. Not remove from it
- I remember, yea. Good days
- It would be great to delay the tank stage and give infantry/light tanks more time to play
- More realism AND more balance AND fixes a host of problems AND teaches people proper use of units.

What's not to like?

* How about paying extra for non-historical composition? Say, +20% cost each time
you buy same non-base unit (Firefly Sherman, for example, but not Cromwells, or T34/76).
(Maxim, or M42 for example, but not 2x Riflemen).

Now, you KNOW someone will say that's not how the economy works.
The more of a specific type of unit you order, the cheaper it should become.

Let's just tie this guy up and leave him gagged in a corner, shall we?

Reminds me of a few other games I've played. They called it "The order of battle".
Premium upcost would be required for each deviation from the order of battle.

Believe it or not the most common tank in British service was the M4A4 Sherman, developed to fit British standards, and every 4th Sherman in a tank column would be a Firefly.

So not to say that the Cromwell was a rare tank, it was certainly more common than the Firefly, but it still wasn't as seen as much as the M4A4.

So if we are to make a combat group it would probably consist of 3 M4A4 Shermans and 1 Firefly to keep it historically accurate, and perhaps like another combat group made up of like 2 or 3 Cromwells and a Comet but you'd of course be paying almost double that of the Sherman combat group as you said for example.

I'm still wondering about the Churchill battlegroups tho, what would be an ideal Battlegroup for them, maybe 2 Mk VIIs and perhaps a Croc with them, and if you go Royal Engineers you'd also get an AVRE as a 4th tank, something like that perhaps.

I'd kill for a Churchill Kangaroo model tho.

Believe it or not the most common tank in British service was the M4A4 Sherman, developed to fit British standards, and every 4th Sherman in a tank column would be a Firefly.

So not to say that the Cromwell was a rare tank, it was certainly more common than the Firefly, but it still wasn't as seen as much as the M4A4.

So if we are to make a combat group it would probably consist of 3 M4A4 Shermans and 1 Firefly to keep it historically accurate, and perhaps like another combat group made up of like 2 or 3 Cromwells and a Comet but you'd of course be paying almost double that of the Sherman combat group as you said for example.

I'm still wondering about the Churchill battlegroups tho, what would be an ideal Battlegroup for them, maybe 2 Mk VIIs and perhaps a Croc with them, and if you go Royal Engineers you'd also get an AVRE as a 4th tank, something like that perhaps.

I'd kill for a Churchill Kangaroo model tho.

I heard it was mostly MkIII and MK.V Shermans though?
- How about er, making an optic illusion so you can't tell the Firefly from the regular Shermans?
(They camoe-ed the longer gun). Only revealed when it fires (the 17pdr reacted VERY differently.
The sound and the clouds of dust it threw up).

On the whole, though, I prefer Cromwells and stuff for the Brits.
Sigh, if only we could do something similar to NSD44 Do you own it?

Most games have the ability to show an un-identified tank as a Tiger (instead of Pz4)
and what not. I think it'd be fun. But would the essence engine allow it?

- A. Soldier : No. No, no. No, no, no, no.
Backaway from there, you are being BAD (ie: The Kangaroo). Lol.
That thing was a nightmare, it was.

Do you have NSD44?

I have NSD44, was a big fan of the Wargaming series but never really got into NSD44.

A good translation of that to COH1 was the mod N44. Basically made you choose a Real Life division and then "unlocks" your units per division. This made it so things like Airborne would have elite infantry starts but lacked armor while things like Armor Divisions had access to the most powerful armored units in the faction. (Similar to how NSD44 does it's divisions.)

the coolest thing about this mod was you had the main division, lets say the 101st Airborne then you chose a subdivision which in real life supported the main division (For the 101st you got to choose between a Tank Destroyer or Light Armored Division I believed). Basically this meant you could play each original CoH factions in a multitude of different ways with their own realistic skins.

IMO this would have been the best mod in COH1 if its balance wasnt horrible. Still I recommend checking it out as its a pretty cool concept, one that I would love it CoH3 was taken that way wth proper balance.

I have NSD44, was a big fan of the Wargaming series but never really got into NSD44.

A good translation of that to COH1 was the mod N44. Basically made you choose a Real Life division and then "unlocks" your units per division. This made it so things like Airborne would have elite infantry starts but lacked armor while things like Armor Divisions had access to the most powerful armored units in the faction. (Similar to how NSD44 does it's divisions.)

the coolest thing about this mod was you had the main division, lets say the 101st Airborne then you chose a subdivision which in real life supported the main division (For the 101st you got to choose between a Tank Destroyer or Light Armored Division I believed). Basically this meant you could play each original CoH factions in a multitude of different ways with their own realistic skins.

IMO this would have been the best mod in COH1 if its balance wasnt horrible. Still I recommend checking it out as its a pretty cool concept, one that I would love it CoH3 was taken that way wth proper balance.

==============
They did a great job with NSD44.
I wish the maps were smaller, or if there was less units, I suppose.

Don't know COH1_NSD44. But I know COH2_Spearhead. Similar concept. Very nicely done.
Oooh, with their own skins, that I like.

Come to think of it, I had a nice mod for COH1 about realistic skins for Soldiers.
Was really nice

... Reality wasn't about balance, alas.
More like you go for an edge, then you rush to decapitate the other before he comes up w/counter.

I heard it was mostly MkIII and MK.V Shermans though?
- How about er, making an optic illusion so you can't tell the Firefly from the regular Shermans?
(They camoe-ed the longer gun). Only revealed when it fires (the 17pdr reacted VERY differently.
The sound and the clouds of dust it threw up).

On the whole, though, I prefer Cromwells and stuff for the Brits.
Sigh, if only we could do something similar to NSD44 Do you own it?

Most games have the ability to show an un-identified tank as a Tiger (instead of Pz4)
and what not. I think it'd be fun. But would the essence engine allow it?

- A. Soldier : No. No, no. No, no, no, no.
Backaway from there, you are being BAD (ie: The Kangaroo). Lol.
That thing was a nightmare, it was.

Do you have NSD44?

Hey, I'm going by what US Manufacturers called them, I don't know what you called them in terms of Marks and that sort of thing.

The camo on the Firefly is doable as a skin I think. If it has anything to do with the model tho it's a no go since Relic disabled model tweaking/modding a long time ago. We only have old videos from back in 2013 of people inporting things like the Hetzer, Jagdpanther, Ostwind and Puma from CoH over to CoH2 and then Relic cut it because of course somebody would be able to make an entirely new game without them getting a cent off of it, and instead of supporting them Relic just shut the can because fuck it, it's either them getting all the money or nothing.

And yeah I mean, when you're talking about the British, you imagine things like the Churchill, Cromwell, Sherman Firefly and that sort of thing, maybe Matildas in Africa, Valentines, Crusader tanks and so forth, but in reality because of the small industrial capabilities of the small island on which England was based on, and because of it's close proximity to the German reich at the time making it a prime target to bomb they had to import a lot of things, basically 70% of the American lend-lease program went to them, the Soviets only got like 30% of it. And those are things like infantry weapons, tanks and other vehicles, food and so on. You don't imagine a British column mostly made up of American Sherman tanks, jeeps and what not produced for British service as well as the supplies on their Bedford trucks, or the M10 Achilles. Canada as well but I guess that's for another topic.

I don't know what exactly you mean, if it's about the icon on the mini map I think that's already there, if you mean what you actually see on the field then no, I don't think it's possible to have it so a Panzer IV looks like a Tiger to you just to fool you.

If you have a direct line of sight on something then it's all you.

And nah, it was fun abusing it before they nerfed it lol. But I'll admit I'm kind of a British fanboy, even if the British Army was broken for the most part, it had character I really liked compared to the American Army for some reason.

And I mean, nobody else could this for example: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1338065529

Park your HQ trucks on the middle of the bridge and make it a fortress lol. Or push with a Firefly shield wall, or rush an enemy loaded up with meme kangaroos, I had tons of fun hunting panthers like that, or provide a wall of fire with the Priest Overwatch, and I never understood why they just didn't give the Brits the Sexton and the Americans the M7 Priest in the first place, I mean the 105 you get in the Infantry tree is nice and all but it's basically a pain in the ass after the targets are out of it's range and compared to the 25 pounder can't be destroyed as easily. That's also another thing that's missing in CoH2, the simple ability to just delete shit, like I have absolutely no idea why they removed that.

And lastly, I played that game from a friends' shared library but it crashed for me after like 30 minutes so he decided to refund it because he didn't like it as well or something to that end.

Hey, I'm going by what US Manufacturers called them, I don't know what you called them in terms of Marks and that sort of thing.

The camo on the Firefly is doable as a skin I think. If it has anything to do with the model tho it's a no go since Relic disabled model tweaking/modding a long time ago. We only have old videos from back in 2013 of people inporting things like the Hetzer, Jagdpanther, Ostwind and Puma from CoH over to CoH2 and then Relic cut it because of course somebody would be able to make an entirely new game without them getting a cent off of it, and instead of supporting them Relic just shut the can because fuck it, it's either them getting all the money or nothing.

And yeah I mean, when you're talking about the British, you imagine things like the Churchill, Cromwell, Sherman Firefly and that sort of thing, maybe Matildas in Africa, Valentines, Crusader tanks and so forth, but in reality because of the small industrial capabilities of the small island on which England was based on, and because of it's close proximity to the German reich at the time making it a prime target to bomb they had to import a lot of things, basically 70% of the American lend-lease program went to them, the Soviets only got like 30% of it. And those are things like infantry weapons, tanks and other vehicles, food and so on. You don't imagine a British column mostly made up of American Sherman tanks, jeeps and what not produced for British service as well as the supplies on their Bedford trucks, or the M10 Achilles. Canada as well but I guess that's for another topic.

I don't know what exactly you mean, if it's about the icon on the mini map I think that's already there, if you mean what you actually see on the field then no, I don't think it's possible to have it so a Panzer IV looks like a Tiger to you just to fool you.

If you have a direct line of sight on something then it's all you.

And nah, it was fun abusing it before they nerfed it lol. But I'll admit I'm kind of a British fanboy, even if the British Army was broken for the most part, it had character I really liked compared to the American Army for some reason.

And I mean, nobody else could this for example: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1338065529

Park your HQ trucks on the middle of the bridge and make it a fortress lol. Or push with a Firefly shield wall, or rush an enemy loaded up with meme kangaroos, I had tons of fun hunting panthers like that, or provide a wall of fire with the Priest Overwatch, and I never understood why they just didn't give the Brits the Sexton and the Americans the M7 Priest in the first place, I mean the 105 you get in the Infantry tree is nice and all but it's basically a pain in the ass after the targets are out of it's range and compared to the 25 pounder can't be destroyed as easily. That's also another thing that's missing in CoH2, the simple ability to just delete shit, like I have absolutely no idea why they removed that.

And lastly, I played that game from a friends' shared library but it crashed for me after like 30 minutes so he decided to refund it because he didn't like it as well or something to that end.

====================================
====================================

- I am Canadian, commonwealth and we made a lot of shermans, here in Montreal, under license.
- MK2 Shermans were used in 1942 in Africa. Mk III in Normandy, and Mk V later on.
I believe the firefly in COH2 is a MK II. (Slowwwwwwww)

- I was talking about something akin to Fog of War (not 100% grey zone, but variable incorrect
intelligence (as in NSD44 and Battlefront: Combat Mission) where Panzer 4 automatically are
identified as Tigers - then as generic Panzer 4, then into specific Pz4 types, as you
improve your intel on the spotted unit.

Same for Firefly. Which could be seen as a generic Sherman. Until it fired, or until better
intel was obtained. The way the gun fires is extremely tell-tale. It kicked up WAY too much
smoke, for starters. And the sound it made. Was unmistakable.

** Add me, I want to show you a few cool things in NSD44 They even give you LOS and % chance
to hit and % chance to pen. Similar to WarThunder (Good pen, bad pen) and more information.

It's a shame you didn't like NSD44. Allow me to show it to you the way I understand it.
It has a LOT of tools which are lacking from COH2.

Honestly, it's criminal, how much is lacking in COH2 in terms of UI/Unit info.
We need to go on websites to look up the info.

** Where NSD44 fails is that you start with huge army instead of the slow build up of COH.
COH is more intimate, smaller scale.

NSD44 is more realistic, yet, it took a lot of clues from COH.

Please allow me to show you!
- Have you tried the COH2_Spearhead mod?

COH1 Brit truck ramming forteress was insane. LOL
Good times, though