OKW late or early game faction?What made them powerful?

So to me OKW had to most chance to win in early game with their aggressive infantry. But that hard to pull off unless you are steamrolling your opponent and get really I MEAN really fast tech. Yet despite OKW power Wehrmacht is still the best early faction with their weapon team (MG42,Mortal) and still good late game option with Tiger.
So why is OKW not late game faction?
First: they had no real versatile Tank. Yes i know Panzer4 is good but try fighting T34/85s or ShermanEasy8 or even Jackson + M4Sherman,Comet,Churchill + Firefly,IS with those, your are never gonna win in a straight out fight, same go for Panthers, what about KingTiger? 2 tank playing ring around the rosy will "had fun" with the big guy in no time.
Second: OKW infantry fall off in late game now i know that volk is cheaper then rifleman section,penal but in the late game Allies would usually always had better infantry if they are decent player. Just imagine blob of rifleman veted with BARs, LMG, section with Bren (they can had Bazooka and Piat,AT grenade one squad equipped is enough to made your tank had a bad days),not to mention Penal which is killing it with Tank right now with shocktroop? yeah you won't be able to fight that. Volk is mid to close range and they fall off agaisnt shocktroop,paratrooper,......Ober is a joke even when upgraded, and SturmPionier is too important,fragile,costly to send into the frey.
Third: No good Artillery, we all know Allies had the best artillery and love spamming them, from thing like StuartHowitzer to Katyusha they bleed you infantry to no end and will most likely wipe them in a fight,not to mention painful as hell.
So there is no REAL perk that OKW had that another Faction can't do better.So what do you think is OKW power?

OKW isn't strong in the lategame anymore.
- OKW popcap is way too high on some units
- vetted upgraded allied basic infantry are superior to OKW infantry, and compete with OKW elites
- allied tank destroyers are better than OKW tanks, combined with the infantry superiority
- weak indirect
- pretty meh doctrines

All combined to make OKW pretty underwhelming in the lategame. OKW is pretty much disadvantaged at everything useful in the lategame. It's really not that weak in each area, but they all add up to be pretty underwhelming. I look forward to the next patch, it really wont need to change much to fix it.

This is from 1v1 standpoint, I don't know about team games.

allied crybabies led to taking away everything cool and useful from okw

The entire early/late game advantages thing doesnt exist anymore... and rightfuly so

I still can't grasp the concept of a German Army that's based on the 1944 Battle of the Bulge Wehrmacht is (badly) designed to be aggressive in the early game, while still having access in the late game to heavier things like the King Tiger and Jagdtiger.

It's like they made OKW have some sort of built in panic button or whatever, which then they saw worked a little too well and decided to nerf the early game, and after that nerfed the late game as well because the OKW could be carried in the early game by it's Wehrmacht teammate(s) while carrying the Wehrmacht in the late game with the mentioned heavier vehicles.

In all honesty it should be the other way around with the Wehrmacht being based on the early Germany Army Blitzkrieg-ing through Europe and the Soviet Union with trucks, motorbikes, MG34s, Pak 36s and 38s, Panzer IIIs, short barrel StuG IIIs and Panzer IVs and of course Tigers, 88s and that sort of thing, not be based on the Kursk Army with Pak 40s, Pak 43s, shitty wooden bunkers and Elephants, and OKW being the later war counterpart with the concrete buildings (like the Bunker from CoH) having less men and less resources but better equipment, like for example the Wehr Grenadiers would be 5 man squads while the Volks would be 4 man squads but would be able to upgrade with STGs while the Wehr would have Combat Pioneers Armed with, let's say MP40s or MKB42s (using the StG 44 models of course), while the OKW would have the Pioneers with Rifles. And then you'd have things such as the Panzergrenadiers and Panzerjaegers which would fill in the AT infantry role (like atm with the PGs, the Panzerjaegers would be PG clones using the Jaeger skins).

But all in all it would be also possible to just design the OKW around the more defensive 1945 Wehrmacht and leaving the current Wehr as they are while adding in a mixed Italian-German Army which would be designed to be more aggressive and mobile.

So basically you'd get all flavors on one side, you'd get the Fast and aggressive USF and Italian-German Army, the versatile mix, Soviets and Wehrmacht and slower late game/defensive Armies such as the Brits and OKW.

allied crybabies led to taking away everything cool and useful from okw

Just like axis cry babies do the very same thing with UKF, eh?

Just like axis cry babies do the very same thing with UKF, eh?

OKW and UKF were designed based on annoying gimmicky units like the suppressing kubels and the emplacements.
OKW is older and has had most of the cancer cut out by now, UKF still has a ways to go.

OKWs power isn't THAT bad, its just its overshadowed by everyone else because they can do anything OKW can but better. LMG34 Obers? Raise you 6 men DP28 guards. More durable, can deal with armor etc. StG volks are overshadowed and outgunned by 2x bren/BAR blobs. Currently the faction in 1v1 is crutching on the flak track and p4 spam because of their awful support teams and armor. The problem itself isn't so much the actual panther, its just that armor is all based on RNG, so when it works you get your fuel worth, but when it doesn't its just an overexpensive repair duty for already overtaxed sturmpioneers.

The KT is another issue. No where near its price at the moment for its worth.

OKW is definitely better in the early to mid game. Mostly because their best units come out during that time. Early game the pressure strumpios bring to the field is really good at pushing an early advantage, on top of that fast volk tech and upgrades means they best compete with allied infantry early and lose late to better scaling. Flak HT is one of the more powerful early game LVs atm and can push the opponent off the field. The biggest issue is that your mainline infantry scales horribly and most of your later game vehicles are average to below average while allied counterparts are very strong. With that and the lackluster scaling of your mainline infantry okw falls off hard late. I feel with a few buffs to some of the late game units and nerfs to over-performing allied units would make the OKW much less punishing while still keeping it from being broken like prepatch was.

I still can't grasp the concept of a German Army that's based on the 1944 Battle of the Bulge Wehrmacht is (badly) designed to be aggressive in the early game, while still having access in the late game to heavier things like the King Tiger and Jagdtiger.

It's like they made OKW have some sort of built in panic button or whatever, which then they saw worked a little too well and decided to nerf the early game, and after that nerfed the late game as well because the OKW could be carried in the early game by it's Wehrmacht teammate(s) while carrying the Wehrmacht in the late game with the mentioned heavier vehicles.

In all honesty it should be the other way around with the Wehrmacht being based on the early Germany Army Blitzkrieg-ing through Europe and the Soviet Union with trucks, motorbikes, MG34s, Pak 36s and 38s, Panzer IIIs, short barrel StuG IIIs and Panzer IVs and of course Tigers, 88s and that sort of thing, not be based on the Kursk Army with Pak 40s, Pak 43s, shitty wooden bunkers and Elephants, and OKW being the later war counterpart with the concrete buildings (like the Bunker from CoH) having less men and less resources but better equipment, like for example the Wehr Grenadiers would be 5 man squads while the Volks would be 4 man squads but would be able to upgrade with STGs while the Wehr would have Combat Pioneers Armed with, let's say MP40s or MKB42s (using the StG 44 models of course), while the OKW would have the Pioneers with Rifles. And then you'd have things such as the Panzergrenadiers and Panzerjaegers which would fill in the AT infantry role (like atm with the PGs, the Panzerjaegers would be PG clones using the Jaeger skins).

But all in all it would be also possible to just design the OKW around the more defensive 1945 Wehrmacht and leaving the current Wehr as they are while adding in a mixed Italian-German Army which would be designed to be more aggressive and mobile.

So basically you'd get all flavors on one side, you'd get the Fast and aggressive USF and Italian-German Army, the versatile mix, Soviets and Wehrmacht and slower late game/defensive Armies such as the Brits and OKW.

I have been complaining about this ever since early access. The flavor of the overall disposition of factions given the tools provided is all off. Wehr gets mid and late war armor along with defensive structures suggesting a '43-'45 footing while Soviets get early and mid war armor suggesting a '41-'43 footing. The IS-2 is the only SOV armor that went into production after '43 in the game. This and the lack of a commissar squad makes what could have been all the more painful to think about.

I play SOV because I like the meatgrinder mentality and being able to decisively win games while suffering a .4 KDR. This and the "everything is also an assault gun" mentality is about the only things they got right for Soviets.

Okay so the consensus is that OKW isn't very good past early/mid game.

What are the proposed changes?

Okay so the consensus is that OKW isn't very good past early/mid game.

What are the proposed changes?

Another redesign which will probably never happen.

But this time instead of only listening to the 5% of competitive players and only having competitive modders make the changes the bigger part of the player base should be involved because the last redesign only screwed the pooch even further, I mean replacing the Sturmtiger with the Panzer IV was needed, as was a stock MG, however the MG34 was and still is screwed, difference is that it was a 2 CP 210 Manpower light supression platform back then while now it arguably comes out later, at a bigger cost and is still shite and easily gets overrun.

Overrunning a pre-WW1 machine gun design such as the Maxim is one thing, overrunning one of the first and most successful machine guns of World War 2 made in the inter war period and having a fire rate of 900 rounds per minute is another.

Not to mention the dilemma with the raketen, some people want it to be tweaked as to make it more usable however I think they're forgetting that it's bugged by default because of where it's projectile spawns at, other people want to have it replaced by a Pak 38/40 which makes more sense, however the first type of people are crying that the Armies would be too similar then.

And then there's the problem with the Sturmpioneers and Volksgrenadiers where if you give the Volks back the shreck they become OP again because they're spammable but then the Sturms are too fragile and too overburdened to be a primary repair, builder, assault and Anti-tank infantry unit, not to mention the mine remover and flamethrower upgrades.

And again, the first type of people want some simple tweaks because they think they will fix these units, while others want a new type of dedicated anti-tank infantry unit such as the Panzergrenadiers for the Wehrmacht, but then the first type of people say that it's gonna make the OKW too similar to the Wehr.

So you have this endless bickering on these forums whether to have balanced Armies or asymmetrical Armies, but you can't have both, and given our present situation it's obvious where Relic stand in all of this.

And Katitof before you get into an argument with me again I don't see you suggesting anything else but "Omg this is gonna make this Army too similar to this Army!!!11!".

And Katitof before you get into an argument with me again I don't see you suggesting anything else but "Omg this is gonna make this Army too similar to this Army!!!11!".

Sure, but its not my argument, but what modders stated.
If you want OKW to become wehr with trucks, sorry but that isn't going to happen.
Work with what you have, because you're not getting anything else.

Another redesign which will probably never happen.

-MG-34

-Raketen

-Sturms/Volks

So you have this endless bickering on these forums whether to have balanced Armies or asymmetrical Armies, but you can't have both, and given our present situation it's obvious where Relic stand in all of this.

Right. I understand your point about the Raketen but I don't think the MG34 is that bad for it's cost. It's no .50 cal or '42 but the price reflects it. Put it at 240MP and call it good.

An interesting idea I've been thinking about it giving Volks the option of STG or the Panzerbüchse 39 sort of like what they did for Penals and the PTRS. Would take some of the load off of the Raketen and make it so Volks can snare a medium on their own with a PzB volley/shrek combo instead of trying to rely on timing your faust after the rak hits.

I'm also and advocate of keeping Vet 3/4/5 units as powerful as they were but adjusting reinforcement cost to reflect their efficiency.

-Fix KT cost.

-Panther cost (?)

After seeing the drama in this thread and people who make such a big fuzz about it I recommend creating some support groups for further OKW on life support topics.

OKW suffers from bad design (same as USF) from the start. That doesn't make them a bad faction. They trade utility for brute force with hilarious vet 5 system and scale well, they are a very forgiving faction to play, which are hard to beat if they have the upper hand, have an extremely good early game compared to Ostheer, and pretty good light vehicles.

They are a solid choice for 1v1 and 2v2. Especially against USF they do so much better than Ostheer. You have to put significantly less effort into gameplay aswell since you usually move basic infantry and tanks.

i dont think OKW need any buffs yet, just certain allied units are over performing. First put those units in line and not make the same mistake relic and the balance team did where they would nerf army A and buff Army B, thuse completely shifting the OP power over to the other side double the fold

They trade utility for brute force with hilarious vet 5 system and scale well, they are a very forgiving faction to play, which are hard to beat if they have the upper hand

Agree with your post except for this line. The vet 5 system used to be over performing on primary units such as volks. Now it is more of a detrement since XP values are still significantly higher than those of other factions, but most scaling buffs have been removed. Currently it really depends on the unit whether or not the vet 4 and 5 are effective. Currently vet 5 of the JP4 does hardly anything, but its XP requirements are double that of getting a vet 3 SU85.

I believe they are more forgiving than ostheer, but I think it's regarded every faction is. And I think most factions are pretty difficult to beat when they gain the upper hand.

Agree with your post except for this line. The vet 5 system used to be over performing on primary units such as volks. Now it is more of a detrement since XP values are still significantly higher than those of other factions, but most scaling buffs have been removed. Currently it really depends on the unit whether or not the vet 4 and 5 are effective. Currently vet 5 of the JP4 does hardly anything, but its XP requirements are double that of getting a vet 3 SU85.

I believe they are more forgiving than ostheer, but I think it's regarded every faction is. And I think most factions are pretty difficult to beat when they gain the upper hand.

Isnt that more of an issue of trying to change a tried and true vet system by deciding to add 5 vets? Like either its op or up and its really hard to find a medium cuz if they have the same benefits as the typical vet 3 of other factions it sucks ass since it takes so long to get and if they get better benefits than it breaks the game cuz then the vets scale into complete monsters. I feel like just making them a typical vet 3 would make OKW less flawed.

EX: its annoying as hell to get a jp4 to vet 5 now as it takes forever. But the p4 feels like a vetting machine (atleast to me)

Isnt that more of an issue of trying to change a tried and true vet system by deciding to add 5 vets? Like either its op or up and its really hard to find a medium cuz if they have the same benefits as the typical vet 3 of other factions it sucks ass since it takes so long to get and if they get better benefits than it breaks the game cuz then the vets scale into complete monsters. I feel like just making them a typical vet 3 would make OKW less flawed.

EX: its annoying as hell to get a jp4 to vet 5 now as it takes forever. But the p4 feels like a vetting machine (atleast to me)

Yep, essentially impossible to completely balance it since 5 =/= 3. You could make vet 5 = vet 3 in both XP and benefits but then the smoother curve of the vet 5 would overtake that over the vet 3.

Brute force you said? Allies Vet3=>better then OKW vet 5 if all you infantry (mostly just volk if you even get there) and let not talk about the weakness in Tank and Indirect fire of the OWK.Just do this comparison
Vet 5 Volk vs Vet 3 Shock
Vet 5 Volk vs Vet 3 Rifle fully armed
Vet 5 Volk vs Vet 3 Section with Bren and sniping LMG + Lee–Enfield.
Vet 5 Volk only win vs Vet 3 Penal and yet it is still a long shot sometime.
the rest like Paratrooper,Ranger,......Concript?Concript can't win right?Right?
Easier way to fix give OKW a doctrial that allow for a TigerI call in for the late game, need some sort of heavy tank that can stand their ground and support infantry.