Rebalancing Sniper Counter for Ostheer

Exactly this. People have been suggesting this since alpha.



Why would you change so many other things? Go from 2 models to 1, and increase the HP to 82 to compensate. That's it. No other changes. ROF stays the same (still fighting 4-5 model squads, so why change it) and camo would stay the same. Yes it would survive a direct mortar shell, but right now the mortar is an effective counter BECAUSE it's 2 models, and wiping both is required to remove the sniper.

At 1 model counter-sniping would actually make sense, rather than having the 360mp vs. 90mp risk we have right now. The 222 could stay the same and actually be effective vs. both brit and sov snipers.

The current meta in big games is pretty bad, with penal/guard blobs covering 2 sov sniper squads, which pretty much force an instant retreat to OST 4-man squads. You can't even 222-dive because of the penal PTRS squads covering the snipers. Mortars become to default counter when you need to get rid of multiple models via indirect fire.

Drop it to 1 model and suddenly ost can counter-snipe effectively, fixing that entire problem.

So just make the soviet sniper straight up the worst one hand s down with nothing unique at all. That could work.. The old last patch demo treatment- nerf it so much its removed from all play forever but still technically in the game.

Make it like the brit sniper but without onfield AOE healing, or AT of any kind, no arty, and no support abilities Except vet 1 flares which you can get on a cheaper mortar that will survive an assault and ALSO kill models outright, often multiple, and provide utilities like smoke, all for 2/3 the price. Yep. Thatll fix the soviet sniper problem. 100%. Good work guys we did it!

It'd probably easier to just clone the Ostheer sniper, and adjust the Soviet reload and cooldown speed to 133%.

You get the exact same ability to cloak and countersnipe, and end up with a RoF that's adjusted for axis squad sizes.

To give you an idea of how rough just removing the 2nd member would be for Soviets: Currently, at max range, the Soviet Sniper team has a TWELVE SECOND cooldown timer. I'm not sure people are typically aware of this. Ostheer sniper has a 3 second cooldown at all ranges.

A 1 man soviet sniper would need a better vet 1 than the flares. I wonder if the flare revealed cloaked units if it would be balanced.... That'd be interesting to see/test.

So just make the soviet sniper straight up the worst one hand s down with nothing unique at all. That could work.. The old last patch demo treatment- nerf it so much its removed from all play forever but still technically in the game.

Make it like the brit sniper but without onfield AOE healing, or AT of any kind, no arty, and no support abilities Except vet 1 flares which you can get on a cheaper mortar that will survive an assault and ALSO kill models outright, often multiple, and provide utilities like smoke, all for 2/3 the price. Yep. Thatll fix the soviet sniper problem. 100%. Good work guys we did it!

Literally the only change is the squad size going from 2 to 1, and the HP increasing to 82. Not sure how it would be "totally useless" now, since its effective DPS would be exactly the same and its ability to survive RNG-wipes (mortar, etc.) would go up...

It'd probably easier to just clone the Ostheer sniper, and adjust the Soviet reload and cooldown speed to 133%.

You get the exact same ability to cloak and countersnipe, and end up with a RoF that's adjusted for axis squad sizes.

To give you an idea of how rough just removing the 2nd member would be for Soviets: Currently, at max range, the Soviet Sniper team has a TWELVE SECOND cooldown timer. I'm not sure people are typically aware of this. Ostheer sniper has a 3 second cooldown at all ranges.

A 1 man soviet sniper would need a better vet 1 than the flares. I wonder if the flare revealed cloaked units if it would be balanced.... That'd be interesting to see/test.

Oh yeah if the sov sniper was a 1 man with no changes it would be awful but I dont see an issue with the Sov sniper basically becoming a ost clone.

What the hell...nerfing the dmg/ performanche...and increasing the price tag to...was it really that op?

2x 222 use to roflstomp everything

Literally the only change is the squad size going from 2 to 1, and the HP increasing to 82. Not sure how it would be "totally useless" now, since its effective DPS would be exactly the same and its ability to survive RNG-wipes (mortar, etc.) would go up...

Useless because it would be like the brit one but without any of the useful bits. You would literally be better off getting a mortar. Worse becauae you would be paying the same as an ost player for their sniper for the same durability but less offensive capability.

Make the sniper take longer to train, make the extra model more expensive and take longer to reinforce, buff the counters. Do NOT make it literally a shittier clone of the ost one with shittier stats and shittier vet. Mentioned above the cooldown on the soviet sniper is 4 times longer than the ost one.

The brit one at least offers support with the target ability and arty flares and doesnt have to retreat to base to heal up when a gren lands an lmg burst on it. The soviet sniper will have NO CHOICE but to retreat to base and would offer nothing but being slow AF at killing infantry.

Useless because it would be like the brit one but without any of the useful bits. You would literally be better off getting a mortar. Worse becauae you would be paying the same as an ost player for their sniper for the same durability but less offensive capability.

Make the sniper take longer to train, make the extra model more expensive and take longer to reinforce, buff the counters. Do NOT make it literally a shittier clone of the ost one with shittier stats and shittier vet. Mentioned above the cooldown on the soviet sniper is 4 times longer than the ost one.

The brit one at least offers support with the target ability and arty flares and doesnt have to retreat to base to heal up when a gren lands an lmg burst on it. The soviet sniper will have NO CHOICE but to retreat to base and would offer nothing but being slow AF at killing infantry.

Alright, I can see your point, but what would you suggest then? Keeping it as 2-model squad seems to be flawed, since it makes countering it too difficulty/tricky/expensive (can't counter snipe, 222 buffs ruin brit snipers, mortar RNG is too luck dependent).

I'm not seeing a lot of options for a 1-man sov sniper that isn't statistically worse than the Ost and Brit snipers; it can't have the ROF of the OST sniper (since it would wipe OST 4-man squads too quickly), it can't have the anti-vehicle power of the brit sniper (would make PTRS redundant) and we can't give it much more than 82hp.

Alright, I can see your point, but what would you suggest then? Keeping it as 2-model squad seems to be flawed, since it makes countering it too difficulty/tricky/expensive (can't counter snipe, 222 buffs ruin brit snipers, mortar RNG is too luck dependent).

I'm not seeing a lot of options for a 1-man sov sniper that isn't statistically worse than the Ost and Brit snipers; it can't have the ROF of the OST sniper (since it would wipe OST 4-man squads too quickly), it can't have the anti-vehicle power of the brit sniper (would make PTRS redundant) and we can't give it much more than 82hp.

Tbh im mot sure aside from more radical changes. Increasing the cost of getting and reinforcing would inflict more bleed (400/100?) A sniper+ a would then be nearly as much as 3 gren squads but practically required to stick together and killing even a model would be 5 con models worth of reinforcement meaning using many snipers carrys much more risk

Alternatively if its to be made 1 man make it "king" of something else (ost is offense, brits utility) something like recon. Give it premium camo, or better los(maybe even range?) When in cover. Make flare no vet and make its vet 1 building the blind like in campaign. Or something more focused like stronger in garrison.


It would be alot of work, but we cant just make it a worse ost sniper because it would just suck...

At a single model OUT OF COMBAT sprint might even be interesting and unique, but again a watered down ost sniper would be awful

Did you guys consider if you buff the 222 against sniper its not just against soviet sniper but UKF Sniper as well? And the the whole thing gets just op

Because it's not like UKF can get an AC before sniper, which hardcounters 222s.

Making the sov sniper one model will not fix any of the issue's plagueing it (impossible to kill with infantry or 222).

It will only make it possible to countersnipe it with ostheer (terrible design and sucks to be okw eh?)

Snipers need a straight up nerf, they shouldn;t be a hardcounter to infantry as they are now.

What would happen if you make the spotter gun a slot weapon that transfer on death instead of the other way round ? So whenever a model dies, you can't snipe with it.

Making the sov sniper one model will not fix any of the issue's plagueing it (impossible to kill with infantry or 222).

It will only make it possible to countersnipe it with ostheer (terrible design and sucks to be okw eh?)

Snipers need a straight up nerf, they shouldn;t be a hardcounter to infantry as they are now.

Make Ostheer, UKF and Soviet snipers only killing models that are under 90% life. So they become support unit and not anymore offensive ones. Thus the need to kill them decrease, you can counter them with healing your squads. At the same time, spamming them become less than a viable option.

As using the sniper, two different functions are defined:
Scouting but with the impossibility to kill anything that is full life.
Effective support behind a squad of gren, a HMG etc... picking wounded model.

Snipers could have a cost decrease to compensate.

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In my opinion, I would redesign completely how snipers are working.

First I would decrease by a lot the threshold to kill vanilla models. Something like putting the threshold at 65% life and apply specific modifier with veterancy.

Example:

Vet0 Sniper vs Vet0 Infantry = threshold at 65% life
Vet0 Sniper vs Vet1 infandty = threshold at 70% life
Vet0 Sniper vs Vet2 infantry = threshold at 75% life
Vet0 Sniper vs Vet3 infantry = threshold at 80% life

Then the sniper veterancy would provide some modifier on those numbers to reach, maybe, 100% at vet3 vs vet3 infantry.

The achievement here is that snipers are less powerful on the early game where they completely dominate because of lack of effective support (of any type) and gain power not by killing and killing low vet infantry but when your opponent gain his own veterancy. The objective is that having a vet3 sniper vs vet0 infantry would do nothing effective.

So calling a sniper early game would become a long term investment, and anybody playing vs it would not need to panic early game to find a way to kill it right of the bat (and most of the time fail miserably because early counters are not that effective in fact), but building a strategy to eliminate him before your own infantry veterancy plays against you.

Make Ostheer, UKF and Soviet snipers only killing models that are under 90% life.

My suggestion was a bit similar.

Reduce target size of mortars and HMG to 1 reduce their HP to 60. (some explosive weapon might need adjustment)

Reduce the damage of mortars and sniper to 64 (remove all cover modifier from snipers).

(making 1 spotter with bigger sight radius and 1 sniper in the team is also a solid suggestion)

That would leave fight between support weapons about the same but reduce the bleed snipers and mortars inflict.

and you do know the UFK sniper can fire back effectively at the 222 unlike the soviet sniper right?

If you do that your sniper is 100% dead

Because it's not like UKF can get an AC before sniper, which hardcounters 222s.

Nobody brings the AEC before the sniper

Nobody brings the AEC before the sniper

That's not an argument.

Actually you should build sniper after AC if you fear 222. Otherwise you should be prepared to mine hard or lose sniper