True dat. I don't see how coh2 is not profitable while games such as sniper elite keep releasing new titles every couple of years .
Coh2 sold a lot of copies, far more than relic or sega expected and it is relic's most sold game ever.
but it's an arcade game so they can only release so much DLC to keep it generating cash .
If they can hire some company to do a market study for them , and act on it they would be so much better off. Imagine if they make another ESL season or make the vanilla factions free to play or something .
About a million people got the vanilla factions free to play in December via the humble bundle
last year I hear new Reilc HQ current construction
but Start This year Relic in critical statement
lot of copy sell but mostly buy on Discount price company of heroes 2 often weekend or mid week sales
---------
DOW 3 I love story tell campaign (play not only Space marine anymore )
but Powercore in multiplayer mode Fail
IF add-on game give VP mode back I hope it back
There is a general misconception that the money made from sales goes directly to the developer, This is rarely the case unless it is a self published title.
This is the normal setup for a project.
A publisher or developer agree on a project, a budget is set and a release date window.
The developer then works in chunks, delivering certain sections of the game at set dates, these are known as milestones. The publisher must approve the milestone, i.e the developer has met the requirements, if they're met the developer gets paid.
This normally goes on for the entire time of development. Once the game has gone 'gold' the developer is paid the final sum.
There are often other caveats attached e.g. If the game scores 90% meta bonuses are handed out, if the game sells x-amount a sequel is guaranteed.
Very underappreciated post here.
This should be a stickied response to every thread that starts down the relic's future and success rabbit holes.
Incidentally this is how much of government in the USA works.
This should be a stickied response to every thread that starts down the relic's future and success rabbit holes.
Incidentally this is how much of government in the USA works.
But surely there is a bit of a difference here in that Sega own Relic so its not like they are commissioning from and paying for a game from an independent studio. Internally the finances may work like that but in this case money for sales does essentially go to the company that makes the game.
But surely there is a bit of a difference here in that Sega own Relic so its not like they are commissioning from and paying for a game from an independent studio. Internally the finances may work like that but in this case money for sales does essentially go to the company that makes the game.
If you think back to the THQ bankruptcy, the pre-orderings for COH2 were 'captured' before THQ went down, hence Fantomasas at post #40 asking what happened to the court case. I would guess that, based on Wuff's reply, the income goes to a SEGA bank account and is distributed from there, unless Steam/Valve objected to such an arrangement after their previous experience.
And as to Fantomasas, I doubt if we will find out - think President Trump! Unless the action went through to a public trial which is unusual, the settlement probably included an NDA provision.
There's no way a company like Sega would simply shut Lelic down. Far more likely they'll repurpose them to pander to the market. Maybe get them making match-3.
I guess that amounts to the same resukt for us though.
The des ription of the problems does sound fairly legit. The author must have been deeply frustrated for some time so it's likely there's a large element of truth to it.
Or it could be a millenial snowflake allied fanboy/girl who wants his/her ideas implemented so he/she feels valued.
In any case, when a game is being officially patched by community members and top players are complaining about the changes - you're getting close to the end of the road.
#NerfbritISandSovCheez
If you think back to the THQ bankruptcy, the ore-orderings for COH2 were 'captured' before THQ went down, hence Fantomasas at post #40 asking what happened to the court case. I would guess that, based on Wuff's reply, the income goes to a SEGA bank account and is distributed from there, unless Steam/Valve objected to such an arrangement after their previous experience.
And as to Fantomasas, I doubt if we will find out - think President Trump! Unless the action went through to a public trial which is unusual, the settlement probably included an NDA provision.
My point is that an independent game studio could collapse despite great sales because they were paid a fixed price plus bonuses (though I would expect in some cases there is also some a percentage 'royalty' type deal?). Subsequently they waste too much money on undeveloped project / too many ping pong table or massage chairs etc. and go bankrupt and the publisher might shrug and say that's a pity or offer them a new project to keep them open if it suits them.
With Relic, Sega if they want can continue to inject money to have them in existence and this would be further justified if Sega were still making profits from their sales above the figure they inject and crucially believe they can do this in the future. Internal accounting may identify Relic as a loss making entity within Sega but in reality it isn't.
Not that i'm claiming that there are making profit for Sega over and above their operating costs - I bet they aren't atm but they may make good in future with new games and recoup the losses. It depends if Sega think they will really.
My point is that an independent game studio could collapse despite great sales because they were paid a fixed price plus bonuses (though I would expect in some cases there is also some a percentage 'royalty' type deal?). Subsequently they waste too much money on undeveloped project / too many ping pong table or massage chairs etc. and go bankrupt and the publisher might shrug and say that's a pity or offer them a new project to keep them open if it suits them.
Nothing there with which I disagree. It's a harsh world and the publisher holds the purse strings, particularly so in the case of Relic, who to be frank, were rescued from perdition by SEGA.
With Relic, Sega if they want can continue to inject money to have them in existence and this would be further justified if Sega were still making profits from their sales above the figure they inject and crucially believe they can do this in the future. Internal accounting may identify Relic as a loss making entity within Sega but in reality it isn't.
Also agreed. This is why I referred in an earlier post to the unknown bleed suffered by Relic to SEGA. We can both agree that SEGA would have expected Relic to pay back its initial investment of $26 million, but in addition what did SEGA expect by way of interest? And also, what is the annual 'management' charge which SEGA expects Relic to pay? i.e. the return to SEGA on its capital? Is it a fixed sum regardless of performance, or is it a percentage of sales? Or how is it calculated?
Not that i'm claiming that there are making profit for Sega over and above their operating costs - I bet they aren't atm but they may make good in future with new games and recoup the losses. It depends if Sega think they will really.
This is where we may disagree. I suspect that Relic have made a return...the question is (for me) : how greedy are SEGA?
This is where we may disagree. I suspect that Relic have made a return...the question is (for me) : how greedy are SEGA?
It is close to 200 employees at this point, 180 x $41k (average developer salary in Canada in USD) brings the cost of operation to $7.38m in the employee salaries alone. Bolt all the taxes, rent, software and hardware costs and it should go above $10m/year to fund Relic.
Relic is a net loss for Sega so far. Dawn of War 3 wasn't supposed to sell this poorly, it was around 300k copies sold before autumn. Factor in the marketing and royalties to GW, it is a total bomb. This is why you have all the survey's and future of CoH dialogue: the Dawn of War is a money-sink (No dlc, no expansions and definitely no sequel anytime soon), where CoH franchise still has the potential to be profitable, or at the very least, cover the development costs.
paradox would be an awesome developer, they make the best games and are really really committed to their communities.
Almost 0% chance that the Paradox in-house studio will develop a COH, its just not their type of game. They did publish Steel Division, developed by Eugen (developer behind Wargame series, which were published by Focus Home Interactive). I could see them publishing a Relic game, or buying the rights and letting Eugen develop it.
I think those raw numbers may be a little misleading since TWW2 hasn't really been on sale, DOW 3 has been super discounted. Also there's like A lot of expensive and good quality DLC for TWW in general.
Still those sales numbers are pretty good.
I would be interested to see the differential when it comes to revenue.
CoH and Dawn of War are the only games i can zoom in and then I'm literally in a war movie because of the animations, explosions, shoutings, sound of engines, gunfire etc.
i'm afraid I won't get this ever again
I agree but aren't you the same person that shit on us when we said that CoH and DoW provided superior gameplay feelings?
In all seriousness tho, I'm expecting AoE4 to fail, but I have a secret hope it won't, and Relic will then be able fix it's past mistakes of CoH2 and DoW3 and make a great game in the form of CoH 3.
In all seriousness tho, I'm expecting AoE4 to fail, but I have a secret hope it won't, and Relic will then be able fix it's past mistakes of CoH2 and DoW3 and make a great game in the form of CoH 3.
I would hope that Sega would realize that AOE4 only on Microsoft store would equal low sales figures. I would hope they get the money upfront regardless of how well AOE4 does. There will be a COH3 (prays silently) because I need something to vent all my frustrations on besides my poor wife
In all seriousness tho, I'm expecting AoE4 to fail, but I have a secret hope it won't, and Relic will then be able fix it's past mistakes of CoH2 and DoW3 and make a great game in the form of CoH 3.
Captain Sobel CoH Roadmap - Relic leaders taking the piss?
“Get closer than ever to your customers. So close that you tell them what they need well before they realize it themselves.” — Steve Jobs, Apple Inc co-founder
From theory to practice;
Good feedback from the CoH community is what helps Relic/Sega to be able to monetize without alienating its players. I'm pretty sure we'll get another CoH game, with or without Relic.
CoH2 - Business Model?
FYI, Relic/THQ was planning to go FTP with CoH2 in 2013 and with the right leadership and publisher support, this (or a new version of CoH Online) could still happen before CoH3.
These CoH2 plans can be more or less confirmed just by looking at previous CoH2 job descriptions and the leadership involved with THQ/Relic before SEGA took over in 2013.
The Company of Heroes and Warhammer 40K developer is looking for a creative director, executive producer, and senior designer to help with one, if not more, free-to-play games within Relic.
Here’s an excerpt from the executive producer listing:
“The Executive Producer is the creative and business visionary, as well as, the ambassador for Relic’s Free-to-Play (FTP) products, ensuring long-term critical and commercial success. The Executive Producer is responsible for growing and bringing successful products to market that deliver on the long term Studio goals.”
Jonathan Dowdeswell is also the Executive Producer behind the reboot of the Homeworld franchise and Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak (originally designed as FTP). https://blackbirdinteractive.com/
The role of EPs (production leaders) is equal to Nick Fury importance to the Avengers.
In addition to this, Relic in 2013 hires another FTP Executive Producer (Mike Swanson) from Gas Powered Games/Wargaming Seattle that was involved with FTP Age of Empire Online and Supreme Commander 2. https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeswanson/
18:55 Mike Swanson give praise to Amplitude for how they build their audience appealing to both casual and hardcore gamers. This was well before SEGA buy Amplitude.
Before WoT, Wargaming in 2009 makes a cheap clone of World in Conflict RTS game. Called Order of War. Can still be played on steam.
*SNIP*
In the larger sense, Williams also spoke briefly about the reasoning behind Total War: Arena, and why Creative Assembly decided that now was the right time for a proper multiplayer version of its franchise title, which had enjoyed great success as a (mostly) single-player entity for nearly two decades. “People really loved the Shogun 2 Avatar Combat system,” he said. “That made us decide that we’d needed to do something, we need to make a multiplayer Total War because they really want it. They want to play against each other in a really balanced environment. We found a demand for something we didn’t know was there.”
Total War Shogun 2: Tips for Avatar Conquest Multiplayer
Unfortunately, Jonathan Dowdeswell left soon after SEGA acquiring Relic for $26 million.
Greg Wilson was then promoted to Executive Producer. Due to lack of leadership, CoH2 was left in "limbo/FTP hibernation. Greg Wilson tries to reinvent the wheel and turn CoH2 from a "skill game" into a "money game" with a bad first generation FTP model (money game with premium commanders).
I can honestly say, several members of the CoH2 community could have done a better job to monetize CoH2. Don't even get me started on the executive producer that was involved with DoW3, good riddance.
Company of Heroes 2: War Spoils Skydive Event
Greb Wilson goes on the track record and makes big promise how awesome War Spoils gonna be.
This would be equal to shooting yourself in the leg and then go on social media to brag about it.
It took Relic 2 years to "partial fix" this broken progression system which they obviously wanted to make money from or indirectly (improving player retention).
The expansion's armies add new strategies to COH2, and play significantly differently to warrant investigation. But I get the impression Relic is more excited by the addition of War Spoils, the new content delivery system that it hopes will fuel the game's success in the future.
War Spoils gives you rewards after each game, including commanders, skins and intelligence bulletins. You can pull three commanders into your loadout before the start of any match, but you can only unlock one during a match. The intelligence bulletins are passive buffs, such as "reload faster". You can bring three of these into a match. The skins do exactly what they say on the tin and make your vehicles look prettier.
War Spoils should keep progression through Western Front Armies interesting, but in the long term, Relic will use it to add new content to COH2, hopefully for years to come. This is all part of the five-year plan, director Quinn Duffy told Eurogamer.
Now there is a much longer FTP backstory to this which I doubt even the Relic GM haven taken the time to know about that goes back to Nexon and several Relic founders that were involved such as Alex Garden+Ron Moravek. Nexon, unfortunately in their early days is partly responsible for giving Western industry leaders such as EA some really bad ideas how to exploit the consumer.
For those interested to really dig deeper into FTP and the "internal conflict" that is going on. Go read this blog from a top insider that has worked with several pro-consumer regulators and top publishers such as Microsoft and Wargaming. This also gives some insight into why Wargaming decided to make World of Tanks Blitz (improved business model over WoT). https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/author/RaminShokrizade/914048/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/raminshokrizade
Pay for Progression: Status: Implemented first in World of Tanks (2011). Optimized in World of Tanks Blitz (2014). Conversion rates and LTV several times higher than P2W.
Pay for 1st Class: Status: Implemented first in World of Warships (2015).It appears that this is yet another boost to conversion rates and LTV on top of Pay for Progression, and allows for asymmetrical eSports for the first time.
Happy Pinata Economy: Status: Implemented in unannounced title under development. No Data.
No Narcissism Design: Status: Implemented in unannounced title under development. No Data.
Don't underestimate the huge importance of the SEGA partnerships with Wargaming/Microsoft.
This is bigger than Relic.
Former SEGA Europe boss, Jurgen Post hints about expanding on strategic partnership, that IMO is a big part of their SEGA 2020 plan which official include the CoH franchise.
Jurgen Post highlight the importance of these partnerships;
Since then, the business has gone from strength to strength, with SEGA Europe acquiring two new studios forming all new pillars in Relic Entertainment and Amplitude Studios, in addition to acquiring Crytek Black Sea (now Creative Assembly Sofia). Huge partnerships have been signed with the likes of Microsoft, Wargaming and Elex to license existing IP, release new IP and build new franchises.
This is why I referred in an earlier post to the unknown bleed suffered by Relic to SEGA. We can both agree that SEGA would have expected Relic to pay back its initial investment of $26 million, but in addition what did SEGA expect by way of interest? And also, what is the annual 'management' charge which SEGA expects Relic to pay? i.e. the return to SEGA on its capital? Is it a fixed sum regardless of performance, or is it a percentage of sales? Or how is it calculated?
Relic Entertainment
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