[DBP] Lefh/ML20 one-shot problem suggestion
Posts: 392
Otherwise, if it is too difficult to do that, just make them both can survive from any off-map(using target table?) when they are in full health. So players will build it.
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Is ML-20 still being one shot by SDB DBP? I think there should be a standard between them when they both cost fuel. It is not balanced when ost having many doctrines with SDB that can one-shot ML20 and recon at the same time while SU only have a few doctrine having the utter expensive IL bombing strike and recon can do the same thing. I prefer something skillful like a brace button which cost munition like 50 or 60 to allow them not being one-shot by call-in artillery within 10 sec( Only effective to off-map, is it possible?).
Otherwise, if it is too difficult to do that, just make them both can survive from any off-map(using target table?) when they are in full health. So players will build it.
The point of pricing changes is that if the enemy kills your howitzer, you rebuild them. Then your opponent needs to hoard a lot of munitions to blow your howitzer up again.
There needs to be an option for howitzers to die with one-shots (preferably from 200MU+ strikes), so that they don't become completely cancerous on maps where they it's difficult to reach them.
Posts: 2742
Posts: 742 | Subs: 1
Most, if not all, offmaps can no longer target the base sector. That includes SDB I believe.
And arti pieces cannot build be build in base sector anymore right ?
Posts: 2742
And arti pieces cannot build be build in base sector anymore right ?
Ah, that is correct. I must have missed that change. I remember the removal of offmap artillery and mortar pits in the base sector... The rationale was mortar pits had brace and the offmaps in particular I recall had to do with plane loiters and massive scale things like Air Supremacy. I agreed with the mortar pit having brace and being largely unassailable. But in the days of Artillery Cover, it wasn't easy to sort out balance with anything British.
Onmap artillery being unable to be built in the base I didn't realize was included in there. I guess that makes sense though. Can't build a Pak43 in the base sector either.
I never was fully on board with those changes because IMO they had to do with map design and BRACE more than anything.
Posts: 392
The point of pricing changes is that if the enemy kills your howitzer, you rebuild them. Then your opponent needs to hoard a lot of munitions to blow your howitzer up again.
There needs to be an option for howitzers to die with one-shots (preferably from 200MU+ strikes), so that they don't become completely cancerous on maps where they it's difficult to reach them.
On theory is. However, ost has a clearly edges(flexibility and cost) against ML 20 in commander choices in fact(eg. elephant+SDB+recon). Not to mention SDB is far from being a 200MU+ strike, How can you balance that?
Posts: 1124
Posts: 392
It's best to wait for the enemy to choose commander to then pick the artillery doc. Minimized chsnce of SDB.
I don't think you have to worry about that when playing axis, because nearly no SU player would pick IL2+recon and give up other obviously more useful and better commander.
Posts: 378
The point of pricing changes is that if the enemy kills your howitzer, you rebuild them. Then your opponent needs to hoard a lot of munitions to blow your howitzer up again.
There needs to be an option for howitzers to die with one-shots (preferably from 200MU+ strikes), so that they don't become completely cancerous on maps where they it's difficult to reach them.
According to your logic, with 200 MU strike, we should be able to destroy king tiger in one shot or blow away enemy's HQ? Those thing when killed can be rebuilt or recruited again after all.
The one shots option is cancerous. No skill required, no counter allowed, one click, gone, easy as pie.
Once, I had a match with friends on custom game. My wehrmacht mate dropped SDB every times he spotted enemy's howitzer. Poor enemy can't do anything but watch his howitzer gone within minute after built.
If you want to stop howitzer from being too hard to be killed, reduce their range.
If you want player to micro to protect their arillery, add an mini-brace ability that cost munition and work only against commander ability.
Make a unit and then make an ability to render that unit useless is not how to balance the game.
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
According to your logic, with 200 MU strike, we should be able to destroy king tiger in one shot or blow away enemy's HQ? Those thing when killed can be rebuilt or recruited again after all.
The one shots option is cancerous. No skill required, no counter allowed, one click, gone, easy as pie.
Once, I had a match with friends on custom game. My wehrmacht mate dropped SDB every times he spotted enemy's howitzer. Poor enemy can't do anything but watch his howitzer gone within minute after built.
If you want to stop howitzer from being too hard to be killed, reduce their range.
If you want player to micro to protect their arillery, add an mini-brace ability that cost munition and work only against commander ability.
Make a unit and then make an ability to render that unit useless is not how to balance the game.
In the vast majority of 4v4 maps it is practically infeasible to reach and destroy a howitzer. Thus, having abilities that act as fail-safes for that is a good design. Adding brace-like abilities, or removing this OHK feature could lead to cancerous plays.
For instance, Mortar Pit sim city is cancerous because it doesen't die early enough. However, howitzers make short work of it. Thus, there are some balancing checks there. However, if howitzers themselves become unkillable, why not build 1-2 of them EVERY SINGLE GAME?
The changes in off-map abilities mean that no ability below 200MU can insta-gib howitzers anymore.
Furthermore, changes to howitzers means that when the howitzer dies, it's no longer 600MP (hard to replace) down the drain.
So yes; the first time you build a howitzer, expect it to get blown up like before. Follow-up howitzers will start putting a strain in your opponents' munition reserve and should be able to survive for longer.
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
In the vast majority of 4v4 maps it is practically infeasible to reach and destroy a howitzer. Thus, having abilities that act as fail-safes for that is a good design. Adding brace-like abilities, or removing this OHK feature could lead to cancerous plays.
So yes; the first time you build a howitzer, expect it to get blown up like before. Follow-up howitzers will start putting a strain in your opponents' munition reserve and should be able to survive for longer.
I feel like in most team games resources are inflated through the roof though. 200 muni is a huge investment in 1v1 but I feel like its not all that difficult to have tons saved up in team modes.
Posts: 2742
Mortar Pit sim city is cancerous because
Brace. Just sayin'. That's kind of what separates British emplacements from any other faction's emplacements.
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Brace. Just sayin'. That's kind of what separates British emplacements from any other faction's emplacements.
If you do this, then any team that doesn't have two guys with offmaps will be doomed to be barraged by the howitzer all game long.
Even if that weren't the case, by giving brace to howitzers you are decreasing the conversion ratio of MU (offmaps needed) to MP/FU (to level howitzers). Isn't there a reason why we couldn't achieve the same by directly affecting the:
- Price threshold of off-maps required to level howitzers (e.g., in the patch from 120MU to 200MU)
- Lowering the requirements of bottleneck resources (e.g., in the patch from 600MP to 400MP)
Posts: 2742
If you do this, then any team that doesn't have two guys with offmaps will be doomed to be barraged by the howitzer all game long.
Even if that weren't the case, by giving brace to howitzers you are decreasing the conversion ratio of MU (offmaps needed) to MP/FU (to level howitzers). Isn't there a reason why we couldn't achieve the same by directly affecting the:
- Price threshold of off-maps required to level howitzers (e.g., in the patch from 120MU to 200MU)
- Lowering the requirements of bottleneck resources (e.g., in the patch from 600MP to 400MP)
You misunderstand. I would never suggest more Brace. I was stating that mortar pits are unique due to brace. God giving more things Brace is the opposite of what needs to be done.
Posts: 392
If you do this, then any team that doesn't have two guys with offmaps will be doomed to be barraged by the howitzer all game long.
Even if that weren't the case, by giving brace to howitzers you are decreasing the conversion ratio of MU (offmaps needed) to MP/FU (to level howitzers). Isn't there a reason why we couldn't achieve the same by directly affecting the:
- Price threshold of off-maps required to level howitzers (e.g., in the patch from 120MU to 200MU)
- Lowering the requirements of bottleneck resources (e.g., in the patch from 600MP to 400MP)
Reliable Axis -counter option ( able to one-shot ML20/B4)
Ost:
3 SDB commander with recon(SCAS, Luftwaffe, Elefant)
1 SDB commander with both lefh and SDB
1 fragmentation bomb commander with recon
OKW:
zeroing artillery
assault artillery
Reliable Ally -counter option (able to one-shot LEFH):
SU:
1 IL-2 bombing strike commander with recon( basically no one would pick)
It appears axis have more reliable counter option in commonly used commander. So most of the time, the availability of using munition to reliably safely clear the enemy's cancerous howitzer play is only on axis side.
Posts: 284 | Subs: 1
Posts: 392
You totally forget Canadian Royal Artillery doctrine, the best counter static units doctrine in CoH2.
You totally forget the concentration barrage is no longer available to shot through fog in the next patch. And it's not fun to pick the same doctrine everytime just for countering lefh.
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
You totally forget the concentration barrage is no longer available to shot through fog in the next patch. And it's not fun to pick the same doctrine everytime just for countering lefh.
And you can SBD thru fog of war? i think there are more allied offmaps which kills howitzers than you listed like air supremancy etc (probably even major arty kills it)
Posts: 284 | Subs: 1
You totally forget the concentration barrage is no longer available to shot through fog in the next patch. And it's not fun to pick the same doctrine everytime just for countering lefh.
And is it really fun for axis ? Always need one Osteer who have static counter doctrine (at lease dive bomb, recon or rely on spec ops fare arty) Or OKW rely one spec ops + fortification combo to deal with static arty.
Both side have same BS cancer as well, admit it !!!
Posts: 392
And you can SBD thru fog of war? i think there are more allied offmaps which kills howitzers than you listed like air supremancy etc (probably even major arty kills it)
Ost has 3 SDB commander with recon but SU only has one. Air supremancy need sight so it is not on the list. Major artillery is limited by the range of the major and I can sure it can't kill a full health howitzer unless you have really good RNG, so it is not on the list too.
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