[DBP] Jaeger Infantry Doctrine feedback thread

Intent of the changes

The community picked a doctrine with a 60% ability overlap with the most powerful Tiger doctrine (Lightning war), and a significant overlap with other sneaky doctrines (i.e., Storm doctrine).

The muni-heavy choice of abilities for the doctrine make Jaeger Infantry feel like the worst of both worlds. In order to salvage the doctrine, it became necessary to aggressively replace some of its abilities to make them work better together.

G43's

Panzergrenadier G43's were without purpose. Thus it became necessary to change them.

The early arrival of G43's in other doctrines (Tiger/Lightning War) allowed strong late-game doctrines to also have a powerful early game. To address this, the CP requirements were increased.

Jaeger Infantry early aggression, instead, comes from Sprint and Camouflage.

Tactical Movement removed; replaced with Sprint (merged with camouflage)

Sprint is a cheap ability and allows players to control their resources much better. It also allows players to use sprint when it's needed, rather than have to wait on a global cooldown.

We will probably remove the sprint ability from weapon teams, and the sniper since this can get ridiculous really fast.

Camouflage (merged with Sprint)

The rationale for allowing camouflage to work on-the-move is to prevent ambushing units from missing out on their ambush bonus when firing from stealth. It is also meant to allow the doctrine's stealthy infantry to scale better into the late-game, when there are craters about.

If this becomes too overbearing, especially when used in-tandem with sprint, we will revert to the original version of camouflage and try to figure out a way to properly implement the ambush bonus so that it always works.

Jaeger Officer squad

This is meant to be the strong point of the doctrine; a durable utility-ladden squad that can rival the tiger in terms of breakthrough.

While the unit does seem powerful, and 360MP might seem small, you should watch out for the bleed ticker! If your remaining manpower is always near 0, this probably means that the unit isn't as all-powerful as you thought it was.

(Like PGrens, he also gets 3 G43s if upgraded).

Light Artillery barrage

Made more specific at displacing enemy squads. Damage vs other targets has been decreased accordingly to match the new price tag. The doctrine is heavy on munitions, and any way you have to control expenditure will help keep you afloat for longer.

This is also a decent buff to Mechanized Assault, which we expect to drop in popularity even further compared to Lightning War, Tiger Ace and Assault Support doctrines.

What about the Storm Doctrine when? If Ambush and Sprint are getting merged, Tactical Movement is redundant.
But yeah that's probably the price for only being able to fix 2 commanders.

Ambush camouflage is unlocked at 0 CP on the ability bar, but still requires 1 CP to actually upgrade.

It's reported as 'fixed' in DBP v 1.0 but it's still true in 1.5.

Just a thought but Rifle Grenade and Smoke Grenade on the Jaeger officer should probably share a cooldown to keep it consistent with USF changes. You might even want to consider some of his other abilities sharing cooldowns as well.

The Jaeger officer himself is a TON of fun to use as a swiss army knife of abilities but that by itself opens up the door to a lot of cheese - Smoke -> Sprint -> Rifle Nade - goodbye every support weapon ever or squad clumped up behind yellow cover. Yes that costs a lot of munitions but it's very hard to counter.

Possible balance issues aside I give the new commander an A+ - the merged sprint and camo (the camo seems to actually work properly now!) alone opens up a lot of possibilities.

+ 1
Jeager officer seem to be like 5-men G43 Pzffuzilier with smoke nade, seem to be elite that Osteer really need !!! (limit to only one is good )

Just a thought but Rifle Grenade and Smoke Grenade on the Jaeger officer should probably share a cooldown to keep it consistent with USF changes. You might even want to consider some of his other abilities sharing cooldowns as well.

We always intended to have shared cooldowns for rifle nade and smoke (like we did for bundle nade and smoke); we just messed up the implementation.

Is it possible to fix the original ambush camo so it works when the squad has to turn in place to aim, not move? Ambush is already fairly strong imo when it works, the moving camo is unnecessary.


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Is it possible to fix the original ambush camo so it works when the squad has to turn in place to aim, not move? Ambush is already fairly strong imo when it works, the moving camo is unnecessary.

In fact we added a special twist to camouflage. It now also works while your squad is moving. However, unlike other moving camo you have to ensure that your ENTIRE squad is in cover. This covers the rotation-feature-bug. It also allows the doctrine to scale better in the late game when there's a lot of craters.

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That's why it had to happen

Jager Light Infantry Doctrine Report Card:

Ambush Camouflage
Very well implemented. The ambush bonus seems to work properly. I'd like to ask though, is Ambush Camouflage supposed to be connected to Sprint in the way that you're supposed to buy the camouflage before you can sprint? Or are they just both unlocked at 0CP?

Also, sprinting MG42 teams and Snipers are really ridiculous. Glad it was removed.

G43 Package
The Panzergrenadier and Stormtrooper G43s are much more worth it. However I don't see the need to increase the CP requirement.

Jaeger Light Infantry Command Squad
Newly introduced in 1.5.1, retains the utility (abilities-wise) of the original Command PGren squad while not being overpowered; the Command PGren squad could melt a regular PGren squad at close range.
However, they don't seem to match up against other 300MP squads (Penals) in a 1v1 unless they stick to heavy cover and get the Ambush Bonus. I'd like to ask what their weapon loadout is; I'm assuming they have JLI G43s thus should be used in a supporting role?

Also, they are multiple bugs: the UI description (appears when you hover over the call-in icon) is incorrect, also if you double-click on Grenadiers to select all Grens on the screen they will also be selected.

Light Artillery Barrage
Still useful against unbraced Emplacements and good at displacing enemy team weapons. The lower cost should allow it to be used more often. I'd like to see a slight CP requirement reduction as well, to further increase viability.

Stuka CAS Loiter
Much less powerful and less frustrating now that it got a damage reduction and no longer randomly crits vehicles. Still powerful enough though; it can reliably destroy mediums and even heavies (IS-2) if they stay within the circle.

On a different note, since you've been able to adjust the Stuka CAS Loiter, could it be possible to include a "QoL Fix" for the USF P-47 Rocket Loiter, and the rocket-firing Hawker Typhoons? A small rocket spawn margin adjustment from +-10 to +-7 would do wonders for consistency/accuracy.

Ambush Camouflage
Very well implemented. The ambush bonus seems to work properly. I'd like to ask though, is Ambush Camouflage supposed to be connected to Sprint in the way that you're supposed to buy the camouflage before you can sprint? Or are they just both unlocked at 0CP?

Both are unlocked at 0CP. We didn't want to give pioneers ambush camouflage (flamers, lol) but, at the same time, we didn't want to remove sprint from them either. That's because Tobis would always haunt us.

Sprint is also a good boost to keep the commander competitive to the G43-tiger commanders. In my games I've found it is extremely difficult to afford enough munitions to buy upgrades for everybody in time.

G43 Package
The Panzergrenadier and Stormtrooper G43s are much more worth it. However I don't see the need to increase the CP requirement.

The CP requirement is supposed to tame the early-game impact the other g43-tiger commanders have (while also being strong in the late-game). Jaeger Infantry instead has camo and sprint to play with until 2CP.

Jaeger Light Infantry Command Squad
Newly introduced in 1.5.1, retains the utility (abilities-wise) of the original Command PGren squad while not being overpowered; the Command PGren squad could melt a regular PGren squad at close range.
However, they don't seem to match up against other 300MP squads (Penals) in a 1v1 unless they stick to heavy cover and get the Ambush Bonus. I'd like to ask what their weapon loadout is; I'm assuming they have JLI G43s thus should be used in a supporting role?

Their loadout is 3 grenadier G43's and 2 grenadier Kar98's. They're meant to be a skirmish/scouting/support squad that can also pack a punch. Currently it's at 35 sight range, so I think we could change that.

Also, they are multiple bugs: the UI description (appears when you hover over the call-in icon) is incorrect, also if you double-click on Grenadiers to select all Grens on the screen they will also be selected.

Noted.

It's intentional that the JLI squad is selected on double-clicking Grenadiers. This is because that's the only way to allow common abilities to show when you have grenadiers selected with JLI. This is similar to what we've done for lieutenant/riflemen.

On a different note, since you've been able to adjust the Stuka CAS Loiter, could it be possible to include a "QoL Fix" for the USF P-47 Rocket Loiter, and the rocket-firing Hawker Typhoons? A small rocket spawn margin adjustment from +-10 to +-7 would do wonders for consistency/accuracy.

We'll try again.

Their loadout is 3 grenadier G43's and 2 grenadier Kar98's. They're meant to be a skirmish/scouting/support squad that can also pack a punch. Currently it's at 35 sight range, so I think we could change that.

That explains it; they weren't very strong against dedicated-AI Penals but could take on Conscripts better than regular G43 Grens. If they could have sight bonuses to 40~45, they could be very useful as a recon unit, and help coordinate team weapon flanks. Seems to overlap with the Flare ability a bit, though.

I was also thinking of adding a "Focus Fire" ability not too dissimilar to the one available to the OKW Sturm Officer; being a command squad and being accuracy-oriented I'd assume this would be thematic and could give this unit more of a "commander" feel to it.

It's intentional that the JLI squad is selected on double-clicking Grenadiers. This is because that's the only way to allow common abilities to show when you have grenadiers selected with JLI. This is similar to what we've done for lieutenant/riflemen.

Ahh, I see. I did not notice because in live, double-clicking a USF officer (LT/Cap/Maj) will select all officers on the screen, and no Riflemen. Double-clicking Riflemen will only select all riflemen, and no officers.

We'll try again.

-crosses fingers-

Tactical Movement removed; replaced with Sprint (merged with camouflage)

Sprint is a cheap ability and allows players to control their resources much better. It also allows players to use sprint when it's needed, rather than have to wait on a global cooldown.

We will probably remove the sprint ability from weapon teams, and the sniper since this can get ridiculous really fast.

Camouflage (merged with Sprint)

The rationale for allowing camouflage to work on-the-move is to prevent ambushing units from missing out on their ambush bonus when firing from stealth. It is also meant to allow the doctrine's stealthy infantry to scale better into the late-game, when there are craters about.

If this becomes too overbearing, especially when used in-tandem with sprint, we will revert to the original version of camouflage and try to figure out a way to properly implement the ambush bonus so that it always works.

Some problem coming now

You merged 2 skill become one

Some commander with 1 skill get buff for This
but not for Storm Doctrine

their have 2 two skill merge like Jarger Inf It mean 1 Blank Ability right now
How to fix this ?

Some visual feedback about the Jaeger Command Squad. It looks a bit weird with just 5 normal Jägers. It would fit better the command theme if one is an officer. If its not possible to give the officer something else then a luger add an Obersoldat or PGren. Just to give the visual Indicator of special men within the squad. I can´t remember which squad has the same white winter camouflage like the jägers, so the commander doesn't stick out too much on winter maps.
Also the unit Icon should be something unique to avoid confusion.

Both are unlocked at 0CP. We didn't want to give pioneers ambush camouflage (flamers, lol) but, at the same time, we didn't want to remove sprint from them either. That's because Tobis would always haunt us.

Hi I'm here to haunt you.


Pushing the sprint back to 1cp really neuters any alternative build orders besides grenspam that were possible with this commander. It's not practical anymore to use pioneers with sprint in the first few engagements of the map, which really opened up the doctrine to t2 rush strats for 222 or pgrens. 3x or 4x gren builds were already the meta before, locking sprint to 1cp leaves grens as still the only possible opening for good infantry play.

It's sad to see that this doctrine is becoming Elite Troops, but with sprint instead of stun grenades. It will play out with exactly the same build order. I would like to see the new commanders encourage the use of other build orders and strategies that weren't already possible in the live game.

Hi I'm here to haunt you.


Pushing the sprint back to 1cp really neuters any alternative build orders besides grenspam that were possible with this commander. It's not practical anymore to use pioneers with sprint in the first few engagements of the map, which really opened up the doctrine to t2 rush strats for 222 or pgrens. 3x or 4x gren builds were already the meta before, locking sprint to 1cp leaves grens as still the only possible opening for good infantry play.

It's sad to see that this doctrine is becoming Elite Troops, but with sprint instead of stun grenades. It will play out with exactly the same build order. I would like to see the new commanders encourage the use of other build orders and strategies that weren't already possible in the live game.

People didn't vote for the right commanders to allow us to create new play styles. Instead, they voted for a camouflage/g43/SCAS commander (as if Elite troops and Lightning war weren't enough), so that's what we had to give them in the end

We'll probably make it so that Encirclement keeps its sprint at Vet0 (but doesn't get camouflage). In any case, Encirclement doesn't benefit at all from camouflage (due to stormtroopers), and any kind of CP change will already hurt that crappy commander.

People didn't vote for the right commanders to allow us to create new play styles. Instead, they voted for a camouflage/g43/SCAS commander (as if Elite troops and Lightning war weren't enough), so that's what we had to give them in the end

We'll probably make it so that Encirclement keeps its sprint at Vet0 (but doesn't get camouflage). In any case, Encirclement doesn't benefit at all from camouflage (due to stormtroopers), and any kind of CP change will already hurt that crappy commander.

You don't know what you doing. Tobis has gone through a difficult time the last 2 weeks. No Hector to tease. Not much shout box activity in which he can shit. And now you are taking away the only thing he still loved, pio spam? How can you do this?!

RIP TOBIS 2K17

Not a big fan of merged abilities, I dont see the need for that.
The jaeger officer squad feels like a super weird squad tbh, not sure if it's the best of ideas. It would be much better if the assault grens could be buffed and placed in this doctrine.

This is how I think this doctrine should be like:
-G43's
-Model 24 stun grenades
-Assault grenadiers (again, this unit would need to be the buffed)
-Light artillery (I feel like this ability is too expensive for what it does, maybe if it would cost 80muni would be more acceptable)
-Stuka close air support

Any officer who doesn't stand with his retinue in the back with a smug grin on his face, killing enemies and calling in abilities, is no officer I want on the field.

I've lost track of which officer squad(s) is getting changed to an assault squad, and which are remaining long range, but I'd rather they all be long range. Having more than four models is already a great buff.